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Alternate universe in the 24th Century

Some of us here think that the events in Trek XI happened in the same universe although the time line within the same universe has been altered from what it once was.

Even if you look at it that way (and, I might add, the original timeline has not been overwritten - it still exists), we still don't know what will happen to Romulus. We don't know what made the star explode, so we can't predict that it will even still happen. It could have been made to explode on purpose...
 
...so we don't know *WHAT* will happen to this version of Romulus.

Some of us here think that the events in Trek XI happened in the same universe although the time line within the same universe has been altered from what it once was.

I was reminded of an argument that traditional time travel is ruled out because when Nero goes through the red/black/worm hole, he would have changed the universe such that Spock would no longer follow him. Nero probably wouldn't go through either which creates a paradox, but I'm fine that. :)

A work around might be that Spock was following Nero so closely that he got within the (well known ;)) "temporal protection" of the event horizon before Nero passed all the way through! I'm indebted to Set Harth for the inspiration.

although I believe the comics state that the Remans are responsible

Why would they do that? Do they have a death wish?
 
...so we don't know *WHAT* will happen to this version of Romulus.

Some of us here think that the events in Trek XI happened in the same universe although the time line within the same universe has been altered from what it once was.

I was reminded of an argument that traditional time travel is ruled out because when Nero goes through the red/black/worm hole, he would have changed the universe such that Spock would no longer follow him. Nero probably wouldn't go through either which creates a paradox, but I'm fine that. :)

A work around might be that Spock was following Nero so closely that he got within the (well known ;)) "temporal protection" of the event horizon before Nero passed all the way through! I'm indebted to Set Harth for the inspiration.

although I believe the comics state that the Remans are responsible

Why would they do that? Do they have a death wish?
according to the novels, the remans left remus in 2379 after the events of nemesis
 
^I thought it was a small group of Remans who left after they were granted the right to start a colony on a class-M world in Romulan space.

It was a while ago (the first or second Titan book?) so I may have misremembered.
 
...so we don't know *WHAT* will happen to this version of Romulus.

Some of us here think that the events in Trek XI happened in the same universe although the time line within the same universe has been altered from what it once was.

I was reminded of an argument that traditional time travel is ruled out because when Nero goes through the red/black/worm hole, he would have changed the universe such that Spock would no longer follow him. Nero probably wouldn't go through either which creates a paradox, but I'm fine that. :)

A work around might be that Spock was following Nero so closely that he got within the (well known ;)) "temporal protection" of the event horizon before Nero passed all the way through! I'm indebted to Set Harth for the inspiration.
I thought Spock went through first, but because of some wibby-wobby timey-wimey stuff exited the red/black/wormhole second.

Whats "traditional time travel" anyway?
Traditional for Trek?
Traditional for SF?
 
Whats "traditional time travel" anyway?
Traditional for Trek?
Traditional for SF?

Both, I guess. Mainstream time travel is the Back to the Future, Deja Vu, Butterfly Effect, Yesterday's Enterprise, Time's Arrow, First Contact type of time travel. The style of time travel with predestination paradoxes and one timeline in one universe.


They should have asked their test audiences whether they thought the original timeline was overwritten or if they got that alternate reality babble. Would have been interesting to see. My guess is that, since people are used to the above mentioned time travel, most of them would have said that the original timeline where Spock Prime comes from is gone now.
 
So, how do you think the galaxy would look in the Next-gen era, in the alternate universe.

Tuvok, for example, would likely never have been born, given that most of the Vulcan's were wiped out by Nero.

Would the tensions between the Federation and the Romulans be even stronger?
Maybe the Klingons and the Federation form an alliance sooner in this reality, given the devastation caused to both sides by Nero.

what do you guys think the Alternate universes future looks like?

Hard to say... the technology would definitely be more advanced...
 
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Most of them would have said "Who gives a shit?" And rightly so.

Then just stay away when people on this message board give a shit. But you can't. Why?

It's a valid point. Maybe 5% of the audience would have cared about the fine points of time vs reality travel (and that 5% is more like 100% here, but we're wildly unrepresentative of the general audience for the movie).

It's very considerate of Abrams & the gang to waste a few spare minutes trying to smooth this issue over for the likes of us, when they could have just said, frak it, the original reality is gone, deal with it, and still made their millions.

Would have been interesting to see. My guess is that, since people are used to the above mentioned time travel, most of them would have said that the original timeline where Spock Prime comes from is gone now.
Most of them (well, among those who understood the question) would not care that the original timeline was gone, since to them it's just a bunch of old crap they don't think about other than two hours every two years and that's if something better isn't playing at the multiplex.

^I love the way you say things like
Every reality has a unique timeline that does not imitate others 100% although there may be similarities.
Like it's irrefutable fact. We're talking about ill-defined ficticious concepts that can be (and have been) made to work however the writers want them to at the time.
Well of course we are. What the writers want to happen is really what is going to happen. I'm just proposing theoretical ways (which are based on theories proposed by real life scientists, and far less zany than many ideas in Star Trek) for what they want to happen - the prime reality still exists, and this new one is carte blanche (within the bounds of what would be 'acceptible' Star Trek, which is something they will define, but since they seem to have a reasonable sense of what Star Trek should be, I'm not terribly concerned).

Just to reiterate what the REALITY of the situation is:

...our story is not based on the linear timeline of Einstein’s General Theory of relativity upon which most movies about time travel are based (like say, BACK TO THE FUTURE, or TERMINATOR, both of which I LOVE). The idea of a fixable timeline has been a wonderful staple of sci-fi since the 50’s, but in reading about the most current thinking in theoretical physics regarding time travel (Quantum Mechanics), we learned about the speculative theories that suggest that if time travel is possible, then the act of time travel itself creates a new universe that exists in PARALLEL to the one left by the time traveler. This is the preferred theory these days because it resolves the GRANDFATHER PARADOX, which wonders how a time traveler who kills his own younger grandfather would logically then cease to exist, but then he’d never be around to time travel and kill his grandfather in the first place. Quantum Mechanically based theories resolve this paradox by arguing that the time traveler, in killing his grandfather, would merely split a previously identical universe into a new one in which a man who is his grandfather in another universe is killed in the new one. The time traveler does not cease to exist, although he is no longer in his own original universe (where he is now missing). Or something. To summarize above on the time travel issue, going back in time is the equivalent of stepping into a parallel universe, according to current speculations based on Quantum Mechanics.
Starfleet and Spock, basing their decisions on this theory, would see that their is NO SUCH THING as “rectifying” the situation in a MULTIVERSE.

Them's the rules, like it or not.

So, Orci and Kurtzman intend their universe to be distinct from the Prime Universe. They are using real-world scientific theories as the basis for their ideas (I'm also extrapolating from those same theories). I might quibble with the idea that Spock's actions "created" the new reality, as opposed to that reality being pre-existing, but that's a debate that changes nothing in the story. However the new reality was made, it's here and it's going to be the topic of movies going forward for the indefinite future.
 
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^Because of - Teh Canon.

To some it is a religion which must be adhered to at all cost. If an new idea doesn't align perfectly with every dot and tittle which came before then the new must not ever see light of day. The abomination must be cast into hell!
 
^A year later and some of those canonistas are *still* trying to "prove" that Nimoy's Spock isn't the "real" Spock, and the "real" Romulus didn't blow up, that the Kelvin is "wrong" and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on...

I think after Enterprise rewrote Trek's past and caused them serious mental trauma, this film finally broke their brains.
 
Here's what I think could happen in the Abramsverse:

2259 - The Enterprise begins a "continuing" mission of exploration rather than a five-year one like in the Prime Universe.

2298 -The Enterprise is retired after 40 years of service and Kirk and some of his senior crew retire.

2299 - In honor of Kirk and his crew's contributions to the Federation, the Excelsior-class USS Enterprise NCC-1701-A is launched under the command of the newly promoted Captain Hikaru Sulu.

2311 - The Enterprise is destroyed with all hands during the Tomed Incident. The Romulan flagship Tomed is the result of decades of reverse-engineering of the Narada's technology. Seeing the Incident as an act of war, the Federation declares war on the Romulan Star Empire, and the Federation-Romulan War begins.

To be continued . . .
 
2312 - The Ambassador Project is renamed to the Avenger Project and work begins on the prototype USS Avenger NX-10521. In the meantime, the Federation develops cloaking technology in the hopes that it will help in combating the Romulans.

2314 - The war does not go well for the Federation, as the Tomed slowly approaches the Sol system. Fortunately, the Avenger is ready for shakedown. The Avenger, like the Tomed,uses reverse-engineered technology from the Narada. The Federation hopes that the Avenger-class is its savior.

2316 - The Tomed conquers the Alpha Centauri system and the Romulan Empire is now only 4 light-years away. The USS Enterprise NCC-1701-B, the third starship to bear the name and the second ship of the Avenger-class,is prematurely launched without a shakedown under Captain Marilyn Janeway. The Tomed is on her way to conquer the Sol system. The Avenger, Enterprise,and the rest of the 522nd Fleet, warp to Alpha Centauri. The Romulan and Federation fleets meet one another at Proxima Centauri. The Battle of Proxima Centauri, the final battle of the war, ends with the Enterprise and Avenger ramming the Tomed, destroying her and themselves.

The alternate 24th century is not as bright and optimistic as the prime one, eh?
 
Neet stuff...

Why is it then that every Trek episodic and film series has had a "time travel alters history" episode, that's on-screen, that's canon. So why should the canon core be surprised that time travel alters history in the new film? It's a great plot device to update Trek.

If Trek is to have a future the core fans need to let Trek change for the better as long as they keep the basic premise and spirit of the concept intact.
 
Why is it then that every Trek episodic and film series has had a "time travel alters history" episode, that's on-screen, that's canon.
It's canon (well, canon-ish) that time travel alters your own history, grandfather paradox be damned, and it's possible, nay required, that you fix the timeline before you're allowed to go home.

But time travel within a single timeline isn't what happened in Trek XI. We've seen travel within a single timeline and travel between realities (Mirror Universe) but Trek XI depicts both at the same time (travel to a different universe at a different point in its timeline from your own). There's no canon on how that works.

For instance, did Spock really travel in time at all? What if the new reality is offset by X number of years compared with the Prime U, so that a "direct" jump will land you in what appears to be the past? What law says that two different realities are required to be on exactly the same timeline schedule? In the grand scheme of things, a difference of 20 years is nothing. With all the major and minor differences that are possible between two realities, wouldn't timeline schedule be one of those differences?
 
But time travel within a single timeline isn't what happened in Trek XI. We've seen travel within a single timeline and travel between realities (Mirror Universe) but Trek XI depicts both at the same time (travel to a different universe at a different point in its timeline from your own). There's no canon on how that works.

For instance, did Spock really travel in time at all? What if the new reality is offset by X number of years compared with the Prime U, so that a "direct" jump will land you in what appears to be the past? What law says that two different realities are required to be on exactly the same timeline schedule? In the grand scheme of things, a difference of 20 years is nothing. With all the major and minor differences that are possible between two realities, wouldn't timeline schedule be one of those differences?


Call it an alternate universe, call it altered history, to me it doesn't really matter, Trek has always been about possibilities. And in this case, as a result of time travel, in whatever formula it can be contrived, they have an "in Trek" explanation for changing and updating Star Trek to evolve the franchise. It doesn't matter why or how really, as long as it's treated with the respect to what came before without being bogged down by it. The Berman formula was ageing badly, Trek needed new breath, and it's still Star Trek. Let the canonistas be damned, because they're wrong.

The core fans need to, and will, still go where Trek takes them. And Trek, if handled well, will be all the better for it.
 
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