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Alternate timeline... again

demolished_man

Cadet
Newbie
Hi

I always send to feel that the current movies and series are set in the "official" time and universe.

As we now only have the JJ universe, it makes me feel that the movie and the coming sequels (if any) are set in the new official timeline, and TOS and everything after are in an alternate "what-if" timeline. So we have a "what-if" the Federation was an Empire of the Mirror universe, and a "what-if" the Kelvin was not destroyed by Nero of the TOS series.

Which somehow takes a little bit of enjoyment away from watching TOS...

TDM
 
Which somehow takes a little bit of enjoyment away from watching TOS...
TDM

Errr... why?

It always was just a TV show, albeit a very good one. There is nothing "real" about it, it is all just fiction, and has always been inconsistent.

Just put on a DVD and watch Kirk, Spock McCoy and the Enterprise boldly going into space and if you ever loved the show you still will.

Ignore all the continuity porn and canon and anally retentive nitpicking you get on here, it's pathetic.

I actually think it is tragic that with all the intelligent people who post this stuff (lots if not most posters here are of above-average intelligence) there is nothing better society can find any of them to do, its a waste really.
 
To me, the newly created timeline is the "who cares timeline". Even the destruction of Vulcan had little to no impact on me in the cinema. The only thing I care about in this new timeline is prime Spock, because it's the real Spock ... the one I grew up with.
 
Hi

I always send to feel that the current movies and series are set in the "official" time and universe.

As we now only have the JJ universe, it makes me feel that the movie and the coming sequels (if any) are set in the new official timeline, and TOS and everything after are in an alternate "what-if" timeline. So we have a "what-if" the Federation was an Empire of the Mirror universe, and a "what-if" the Kelvin was not destroyed by Nero of the TOS series.

Which somehow takes a little bit of enjoyment away from watching TOS...

TDM

The original timeline still exists out there somewhere so it's not like everything in TOS etc never happened because it has. The original timeline universe is only missing Spock and Nero and still continues unchanged so I dont see any reason why watching this new universe takes anything away from the other series.
 
Hi

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, obviously it's fiction, but I guess it's like watching a series set in the Mirror universe - very entertaining, but always with the knowledge that it's not the "real" universe. The people are a different version of characters I really want to watch.

I for one would have preferred a reboot as per Bond rather than a continuation as per Who.

And as for posting on here rather than doing something productive - well, if the Internet wasn't here, we'd do the same thing, but we'd just all be down the pub with our other Trekkie friends saying it...

TDM
 
Yeah, the "because of Star Trek XI, the events of the earlier shows didn't happen anymore!" complaints are somewhat illogical. The events of the earlier shows weren't really happening to begin with... since Star Trek is fiction and not a documentary.

You're complaining that fictional events are less real now because of the events in another work of fiction.
 
As someone with other fandoms that do involve alternate parallel realities/universes (Buffy/Angel, for example), this doesn't seem to be a problem to me.

In fact, I ADORE Buffy Wishverse fanfiction (you know, if everyone didn't die at the end). I am actually capable of caring about these alternate versions of the characters (as different as the characters become in episodes like The Wish/Doppelgangland, Birthday, Superstar, etc... just due to the tiniest of blips of alternate events in their timelines). The Jossverse is loaded with alternate realities almost identical to the Prime universe and a vast number of heavenly and hellish dimensions. Coming from this other fandom, Trek doing this didn't phase me at all.

Unfortunately, people thought this was time-travel rather than parallel-dimension hopping involving timelines which aren't concurrent with each other. Another concept familiar to those of us with a Jossverse background (16 years in Quar'toth = 3 weeks on Earth, 100 years in Acathla's Hell = 3 months on Earth, people growing to old age in the enslaved Anneverse within the span of 1 day, etc...)... And likewise, a few seconds in the Primeverse is 25 years in the Abramsverse.

One of the fun things about alternate realities is that they answer 'what if such and such happened a different way?' or 'what if a character whose life was altered met up with a different version of themselves?' This is just that. It doesn't make one a lesser character than the other.

Of course, Trekkies should be familiar with the concept of the "evil twin" doppelgänger which is essentially the '60s (and beyond) gimmick that the Mirrorverse was inspired by. Practically every sci-fi/supernatural/fantasy show PERIOD has had evil twins. It's as popular as trapping two characters together so they can work out their zany differences.

Trek has at least 3 alternate realities:
* the Primeverse
* the Mirrorverse
* the Abramsverse

Here's an explanation of alternate realities from another fandom (which is based upon the Many-Worlds Interpretation of String/Quantum Theory):

Anya: Sure, alternate realities. You could uh, could have like a world without shrimp. Or with, you know, nothing but shrimp. You could even make like a freaky world where Jonathan's some kind of not-perfect mouth-breather if that's what's blowing up your skirt these days.

The concept of a world with nothing but shrimp or the one just like ours but without shrimp is an idea of just how many alternate realities could be out there in a fandom that has already canonized the Many-Worlds Interpretation.

I think the root of the problem here is that people don't feel like another universe is equal to that of the Primeverse. In the new world, their world is as equal and real to them as the Primeverse is to the Prime characters. The characters are still the same people, but are living in changed circumstances. And these people might meet alternate versions of themselves who have been affected by different variables.

The fact that AU or "Wishverse"-type fanfiction exists at all shows that people can care about alternate reality versions of characters. Sometimes it's even more interesting than the well-traversed paths shown in the main reality.

What the deaths of George and Amanda and the destruction of Vulcan did was establish the new variables. It also showed that Abrams was willing to rip away the baby blanket/comfort zone of the complacent established universe. Things can happen very differently, new stories can be told and nothing is safe. It also gives a place for the characters to grow in different directions from their predecessors. Here we have an old Spock who, while he has lived with his planet and family intact, always remained more with his Vulcan side. This new Spock has the variables changed so that he is on his path to embracing his human side instead. It's an exploration of the character and where different choices would lead.

Even though the Prime Vulcan is intact, Prime Spock is still emotional over the loss of an alternate Vulcan regardless. That is the human response to seeing something like that, even if it is not logical.
 
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Hi

I always send to feel that the current movies and series are set in the "official" time and universe.

As we now only have the JJ universe, it makes me feel that the movie and the coming sequels (if any) are set in the new official timeline, and TOS and everything after are in an alternate "what-if" timeline. So we have a "what-if" the Federation was an Empire of the Mirror universe, and a "what-if" the Kelvin was not destroyed by Nero of the TOS series.

Which somehow takes a little bit of enjoyment away from watching TOS...

TDM

The original timeline still exists out there somewhere so it's not like everything in TOS etc never happened because it has. The original timeline universe is only missing Spock and Nero and still continues unchanged so I dont see any reason why watching this new universe takes anything away from the other series.

Hiya

I know it's happened, and the new film hasn't changed TOS, I just feel like the old timeline isn't the "real" one anymore, the new timeline is the "real" one and so TOS feels a little diminished.

TDM

TDM
 
I agree with demolished_man here. I like to look at Star Trek as a complete work. It may be fiction, but it still needs to make sense and maintain some consistency if it is to be viewed as a complete work. Robert Jordan with his Wheel of Time series or Tolkien with the Lord of the Rings took great care to create a complete, consistent universie. To me, that is one of the strengths of the fantasy/sci-fi genre. And, its one thing that makes Star Trek so unique as a TV/movie series. Simply by saying its fiction and therefore doesn't matter seems to be a shallow argument when you consider the long-term legacy of Trek (some of us are concerned with that). Granted there will always be some inconsistency when having several writers at the helm for 40 years, but some trek fans feel that Trek XI tried to cop out of maintaining continuity by creating an alternate universe. To some extent, it made the first meeting of Kirk and Spock or Kirk and McCoy less compelling as it is no longer part of the real history of those characters we see in the original series. For me, the time travel elements of the story weren't that compelling anyway. It has been done much better on other Trek series/movies. What made the movie compelling were the character relationships. I thought the acting was great. You could have had the same thing with a movie in the established universe.
 
Hi
And as for posting on here rather than doing something productive - well, if the Internet wasn't here, we'd do the same thing, but we'd just all be down the pub with our other Trekkie friends saying it...

Yeah, right. As if, as if. You'd be hangin at the library while real man were drinking beer. You know, real men that don't watch a movie five fucking times just to makes lists and bitch about it on the internet...:lol:

/Why yes, I'm pulling your leg
 
And as for posting on here rather than doing something productive - well, if the Internet wasn't here, we'd do the same thing, but we'd just all be down the pub with our other Trekkie friends saying it...

It isn't about productivity, the people in here often think way way way too much about the little tiny aspects of what, lets face it, are nothing more than TV shows and films.

Given how many real-world useful things are currently being done by people who cant think at all, it is a shame that so much of the intellect on display here is wasted talking crap!
 
It isn't about productivity, the people in here often think way way way too much about the little tiny aspects of what, lets face it, are nothing more than TV shows and films.

Given how many real-world useful things are currently being done by people who cant think at all, it is a shame that so much of the intellect on display here is wasted talking crap!

There is nothing wrong with using ones intellect to make a solid argument. Even if it is for some simple TV show. Its not like it requires alot of time or energy to do so. Please explain to me why else you would have a Star Trek forum, if not to discuss aspects of Trek. If it bothers you so much, why exactly are you on here reading peoples discussion posts about aspects of the series. Why not put your own intelligence to good use on another forum.
 
Everyone else pretty much said it already, so I'll just go ahead with a variation of that.

It's pretty much whatever the hell you want it to be.
 
Which somehow takes a little bit of enjoyment away from watching TOS...
TDM

Errr... why?

It always was just a TV show, albeit a very good one. There is nothing "real" about it, it is all just fiction, and has always been inconsistent.

Just put on a DVD and watch Kirk, Spock McCoy and the Enterprise boldly going into space and if you ever loved the show you still will.

Ignore all the continuity porn and canon and anally retentive nitpicking you get on here, it's pathetic.

I actually think it is tragic that with all the intelligent people who post this stuff (lots if not most posters here are of above-average intelligence) there is nothing better society can find any of them to do, its a waste really.

Quoted For Truth.
 
Is there any way we can start a FAQ thread that addresses the multiple timeline issue so that we don't continue to beat the same old dead horse over and over?
 
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