Exactly. That's exactly what I am saying . The entire movie takes place in alternate realities from the original Star Trek universe. The Original Trek universe Is never depicted in Star trek 2009.
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Alternate reality vs. altered timeline
- Thread starter lorrak7
- Start date
Where is the difference?
JJ gave the characters the preternatural knowledge that they are dealing with alternate realities rather than timelines, which absolves them from the responsibility/motive to set the timeline right, because JJ doesn't want to do a set-the-timeline-right story (and I wholeheartedly agree - too boring, lockstep and overdone).
Spock Prime's Vulcan is still safe. New Spock's Vulcan can never be un-destroyed. Theoretically he could journey to another reality and stop the destruction there, but it wouldn't restore his Vulcan. So that's all over and done with and we can move on to the next story, but it does raise two very thorny issues:
1. How do these characters know they are in an alternate reality and not their own timeline? To someone in the reality/timeline, they look the same. When the writers gave the characters dialogue that implied they know the difference, that was impossible and they shouldn't have said that. (The writers were using the characters to talk to the audience - so that we would know what's going on. Otherwise, the characters didn't need to say a thing on the subject.)
2. So what are the rules for travelling to different realities vs timelines in Star Trek, anyway? Why do anomalies, wormholes, transporter accidents, Bajroan Orbs, etc do one and not the other? (Silly question, since the rules for time travel alone are inconsistent, nevermind the alterate realities).
These are unanswerable and hopelessly garbled questions and I don't actually expect an answer. Chalk it all up to JJ's need to open up the cosmos to storytelling possibilities without getting bogged down in all that boring restore-the-timeline shit. Works for me.
So that's the third thing we don't know:
3. Was this new reality created by the lightning storm or was it always there, waiting to get messed up by the interlopers from the Prime Universe?
Yep. Wait, doesn't everyone think this?
I can't keep up with this shit!
Spock Prime's Vulcan is still safe. New Spock's Vulcan can never be un-destroyed. Theoretically he could journey to another reality and stop the destruction there, but it wouldn't restore his Vulcan. So that's all over and done with and we can move on to the next story, but it does raise two very thorny issues:
1. How do these characters know they are in an alternate reality and not their own timeline? To someone in the reality/timeline, they look the same. When the writers gave the characters dialogue that implied they know the difference, that was impossible and they shouldn't have said that. (The writers were using the characters to talk to the audience - so that we would know what's going on. Otherwise, the characters didn't need to say a thing on the subject.)
2. So what are the rules for travelling to different realities vs timelines in Star Trek, anyway? Why do anomalies, wormholes, transporter accidents, Bajroan Orbs, etc do one and not the other? (Silly question, since the rules for time travel alone are inconsistent, nevermind the alterate realities).
These are unanswerable and hopelessly garbled questions and I don't actually expect an answer. Chalk it all up to JJ's need to open up the cosmos to storytelling possibilities without getting bogged down in all that boring restore-the-timeline shit. Works for me.
Or that other universe always existed and the Star Trek storyline has simply moved from the Prime Universe to go check out this new one that's always been there but that we haven't seen before that Spock Prime also happens to be in (which is probably why we are checking out this universe and not the infinite number of other ones where similar things could be happening).
So that's the third thing we don't know:
3. Was this new reality created by the lightning storm or was it always there, waiting to get messed up by the interlopers from the Prime Universe?
No, that's a completely different alternate reality, distinct from Prime U and Nu U. However, there are more likely more than one reality where the Terran Empire exists. It would be a sad, sad thing to think that in all the vast multiverses, there is not one evil Zach Quinto Spock out there rockin' a goatee.
Yep. Wait, doesn't everyone think this?
I can't keep up with this shit!
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Actually no. Lots of people think that Leonard Nimoy is portraying Spock from the original Star Trek universe but if you study the movie carefully you will discover this to not be the case at all. Heck even the script writers have said in interviews that he is the Spock from the original Star Trek universe but the facts presented within the movie show this not to be true at all. Check out my previous posts. I cover this in them.
And then there was the scholar who tried to prove that Shakespeare's plays were written not by Shakespeare but by someone else named Shakespeare. 
The people who made the movie stated what the situation was: Spock Prime is supposed to be from the familiar TOS timeline, and the events of the movie take place in an altered reality.
In fact, it's simply a new version of an old story. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no TOS Universe, so the very phrase is meaningless.
This is Star Trek now, and until the next reboot.
The people who made the movie stated what the situation was: Spock Prime is supposed to be from the familiar TOS timeline, and the events of the movie take place in an altered reality.
In fact, it's simply a new version of an old story. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no TOS Universe, so the very phrase is meaningless.
This is Star Trek now, and until the next reboot.
This is Star Trek now, and until the next reboot.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4448/horsel.jpg
Sorry, no - on that same basis I could claim that folks who call themselves Trek fans but are unremittingly negative about Abrams's Star Trek are mislabeling themselves. Nice try, though.
number6
Vice Admiral
Stating in interviews that Spock "Prime" is supposed to be from the familiar Tos timeline and demonstrating that within the story are two entirely different things and if you study Spock "Prime" carefully you will discover that he is not from the familiar Tos timeline. His understanding of the effect of altering the past are totally different from those of TOS Spock. Therefore there is indeed a TOS Universe as nothing occurs within Trek 2009 to alter that.And then there was the scholar who tried to prove that Shakespeare's plays were written not by Shakespeare but by someone else named Shakespeare.
The people who made the movie stated what the situation was: Spock Prime is supposed to be from the familiar TOS timeline, and the events of the movie take place in an altered reality.
In fact, it's simply a new version of an old story. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no TOS Universe, so the very phrase is meaningless.
This is Star Trek now, and until the next reboot.
Just watch the film. The black holes, as shown in it, were huge anomalies in space that hung there for awhile. The singularity that destroyed Vulcan only existed for a minute, if that. Only long enough to swallow the planet.
Topic, please. (Hint: it's not other posters.)
Topic, please. (Hint: it's not other posters.)You give him way too much credit, and in the process insult the cow.
You should have just told him to MOOve on and cut the bull, and not to milk that topic of conversation any more - just think of something udder.
number6
Vice Admiral
That's udderly ridiculous, but at least you've given me something to graze on. I shall ruminate.Topic, please. (Hint: it's not other posters.)You give him way too much credit, and in the process insult the cow.
You should have just told him to MOOve on and cut the bull, and not to milk that topic of conversation any more - just think of something udder.
That's udderly ridiculous, but at least you've given me something to graze on. I shall ruminate.
You should have just told him to MOOve on and cut the bull, and not to milk that topic of conversation any more - just think of something udder.
Well, it's the mods' job to steer the conversation, isn't it? Looks like we have to teats them a thing or two. I think a lot of calf-eine is in order. And no, I don't have a steak in this debate, I apologize if I seem to be horning in.
Yes. The TOS timeline carries on parallel to the new universe as a result of the Kelvin getting blown up. Anything pre-Kelvin is TOS timeline. Unless you're telling me that the writers don't have a clue, which I guess would explain a lot..
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Yes he is.
Spock in which time travel episode?
Spock in which previous movie?
Sorry, you're hanging this preposterous line of reasoning on the slender reed that there's some tightly consistent interpretation of "time travel" in all previous Trek that anyone who watches the thing must interpret in the same way that you do - and therefore your conclusion can be "proved right."
And that's not true.
Spock Prime is Leonard Nimoy is the Only Spock before Quinto was cast. The story of the movie is a variant telling of how the Enterprise crew came to be the Enterprise crew. These other "alternate universes" that you keep talking about don't exist even within the framework of the narrative (remembering that none of this exists in reality) and speculation about them is meaningless even by the generally trivial standards of Trek fandom.
Stating in interviews that Spock "Prime" is supposed to be from the familiar Tos timeline and demonstrating that within the story are two entirely different things and if you study Spock "Prime" carefully you will discover that he is not from the familiar Tos timeline. His understanding of the effect of altering the past are totally different from those of TOS Spock. Therefore there is indeed a TOS Universe as nothing occurs within Trek 2009 to alter that.And then there was the scholar who tried to prove that Shakespeare's plays were written not by Shakespeare but by someone else named Shakespeare.
The people who made the movie stated what the situation was: Spock Prime is supposed to be from the familiar TOS timeline, and the events of the movie take place in an altered reality.
In fact, it's simply a new version of an old story. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no TOS Universe, so the very phrase is meaningless.
This is Star Trek now, and until the next reboot.
Spock Prime's understanding of the Alternate Reality situation is based on knowledge from over 150 years in the future from TOS. His understanding of the situation is irrelevent.
Actually the writers have said in interviews that Spock Prime is the Spock from the original TOS Timeline but as I already explained they fail to demonstrate this in the movie. The Spock from the original TOS Timeline would never have accepted that Nero's alteration of the past merely created an alternate timeline. In the universe TOS Spock comes from if you alter the past you alter your own present as is demonstrated in City on the Edge of Forever. If the Spock in Trek 2009 were TOS Spock he would be doing everything in his power to restore the timeline to its original form so that millions of Vulcans would not die who did not die before.The fact that he doesnt do this clearly indicate that the Spock depicted in Trek 2009 is from a reality where if you alter the past you merely create an alternate timeline leaving the future you came from unaffected. Thus the Spock in Trek 2009 is not TOS Spock.
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