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Alternate reality vs. altered timeline
- Thread starter lorrak7
- Start date
I think some of you are missing the point. It is evident from the events in the movie that the screen writers of trek 2009 are functioning under the principle that if you change the past you don't alter your own present you merely create an alternate reality. This is the same theory that Marvel comics has been using in the Marvel Universe for many years. Also it is evident that the reality that Spock Prime (who might be better named Alter-naat Spock)(ha ha) came from functioned under this principle and that his reality which is different from the original series universe existed prior to any time traveling and it is from this reality that Nero created an alternate reality not from the original series reality. Furthermore the original series crew did not create the parallel universe in Mirror Mirror by traveling there . It already existed just as the parallel universe Alter-naat Spock traveled into the past from already existed. Once again this is demonstrated by his markedly different attitude about the effect altering the past has. He obviously lives in a universe where if you alter the past you merely create an alternate reality . If at the end of Trek 2009 Alter-naat Spock were to travel back to his present he would find himself back in his original present where Vulcan was not destroyed by Nero.But the alternate universe created by Nero's actions would also continue to exist. Original series universe Spock existed in a universe where if you altered the past you changed your own present. This is where the two Spocks differ. They are from different universes where the effects of time travel are different and therefore the original series Spock nor the original series universe ever appears in Trek 2009.
Do we know that or is it just presumed because the movies used the Enterprise Delta for all Starfleet personnel? Its just as easy to presume that Starfleet honored the Kelvin by adopting its emblem.
WALL OF TEXT MY EYES.
For what reason would the Enterprise in the original universe have the Kelvin emblem then?
Becasue the Kelvin was decommisioned and the design was up fo grabs.
Or perhaps they were both part of a group ships that uses the delta.
These two officers are not from the Enterprise, yet sport the Delta.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Both realities, the one Old Spock came from and the one the Nerada arrived in, are completely different realities from the original Star Trek universe.
1. In the original Star Trek universe, the Romulans power their ship with artificial black holes and have no need for "red matter" to do so. If a black hole is the solution to the super nova problem
they would have dealt with it on their own with ridiculous ease. Since they needed a Vulcan ship and science to solve their problem for them, we can safely conclude this future is NOT the future of the original Star Trek universe.
2. The people on the Kelvin have no trouble recognizing a Romulan ship, despite the fact it's from a 150 years in the future. They also show no great surprise at the Romulans on board and what they look like. Seeing as the Federation and the Romulans are not supposed to have had any contact with the Romulans at all since their war until Balance of Terror when Kirk and the Enterprise meet them once again, there is no way this could have happened in the original universe.
Result being: neither universe is the original Star Trek universe.
1. In the original Star Trek universe, the Romulans power their ship with artificial black holes and have no need for "red matter" to do so. If a black hole is the solution to the super nova problem
they would have dealt with it on their own with ridiculous ease. Since they needed a Vulcan ship and science to solve their problem for them, we can safely conclude this future is NOT the future of the original Star Trek universe.2. The people on the Kelvin have no trouble recognizing a Romulan ship, despite the fact it's from a 150 years in the future. They also show no great surprise at the Romulans on board and what they look like. Seeing as the Federation and the Romulans are not supposed to have had any contact with the Romulans at all since their war until Balance of Terror when Kirk and the Enterprise meet them once again, there is no way this could have happened in the original universe.
Result being: neither universe is the original Star Trek universe.
The red matter isn't being used to power the Narada (which, I might add, is a civilian mining vessel, not necessarily using a singularity for power anyway). The red matter was in storage aboard the Jellyfish.
It wasn't. It seemed clear that the black hole(s) were created via the *accidental* detonation of a large amount of red matter. What was supposed to happen is this: the red matter would be released inside the supernova, and a singularity (NOT a black hole) would instantly suck it in. Just like what happened on Vulcan.
We actually don't know that for sure.
These are trained Starfleet officers, it's not like they're going to jump out of their skins
.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Which wasn't what the point of my paragraph - you should really train in comprehensive reading.
Black Holes ARE singularities. Artificial Singularities is what powers Romulan ships.
The Black Hole was NOT created via the accidental detonation, creating the Black Hole was the whole point. In fact, we SEE Spock perform the action of releasing red matter. Finally if a large amount of red matter had detonated accidentally, there wouldn't be a Jelly Fish left, since inside it was the only place where there was a large amount of Red Matter, and if that was accidentally detonated:
1. It would have destroyed the Jelly Fish from the inside out.
2. There wouldn't be any Red Matter left to go to the past even if the Jelly Fish somehow survived.
Yes, we DO know that for sure, because people Kelvin identify the Nerada as a Romulan ship.
These are trained Starfleet officers, it's not like they're going to jump out of their skins
Really? Maybe you should go watch Balance of Terror. Everybody shows shock, in fact, one Styles immediately pegs Spock as a traitor and Romulan sympathizer because they look the same.
So yeah, Starfleet officers are not Vulcans who have their emotions completely under control. They actually can and will show surprise and shock.
(emphasis mine)
My, my, 3D Master - how soon we forget: two posts into the discussion, and you're already insulting someone's intelligence. You know perfectly well that I've asked you more than once not to do that -- in fact, I've asked you more than once not to call people stupid by using that particular way of phrasing the insult -- and here it gets you a warning for flaming.
Furthermore, while Mr. Laser Beam may occasionally have difficulty with "getting" things, such is not the case here. The problem with that paragraph lies not with his reading comprehension but with the way the paragraph was written. You might have had a point in mind (and, having read your arguments before, I have a pretty good idea what that point was) but you failed to convey it clearly in the paragraph in question, leaving it open to a misread by someone who may not have heard the spiel ten times before and thus didn't already know the answer you meant to convey. Insulting someone else for your own shortcoming is not the way to go.
Comments to PM.
And the Mirror Universe would also have to diverge as well to correspond to this NuTrek Universe.
Although perhaps sooner than the Kelvin incident since NuMirror Archer would have had to have captured the NuDefiant from the NuTrek Universe, since both Defiants can't go back to one single universe in the past.
Although perhaps sooner than the Kelvin incident since NuMirror Archer would have had to have captured the NuDefiant from the NuTrek Universe, since both Defiants can't go back to one single universe in the past.
And then the NuTrek Universe would also have differences in the past when the NuEnterprise crew appears in those 20th Century episodes as well as having NuGuinan and NuData's head in the 19th Century, and stuff like NuQuark in 1947.
You've already done that shtick in several threads, including one which was dedicated to it; it's verging on spamming here, especially with the double-post.
Good thing they explained all that in interviews, and not in the movie itself. And that the movie itself, with all its retcons, can easily suggest that the Kelvin, and the Jellyfish, are already from alternate universes to begin with.
I'd rather the whole film was 100% unrelated to existing Trek as opposed to one or both universes being alternate to the prime timeline, but it's clearly meant to be an alternate universe branching off from the existing Trek timeline that we all know and love from the moment the Kelvin blows up and I'll only ever view it as such.
I don't care enough about the movie to sit there and try to rationalise the things that didn't make a lick of sense.
I don't care enough about the movie to sit there and try to rationalise the things that didn't make a lick of sense.
What its meant to be and what the writers of the script say in interviews are entirely different from what the events in the movie show to be the facts. This is no branching off from the original Star Trek universe in Star Trek 2009 because the events of the Star trek 2009 clearly show that the original series universe was never depicted in Trek 2009. Review my previous two major posts on this subject.
No, I disagree. Black holes were created accidentally, not on purpose, in this film.
Yes, we do, but the fact remains: Spock was not intending to create a black hole, merely a singularity which would swallow the supernova. A black hole wasn't created when Vulcan was destroyed, was it? No, just a singularity that absorbed the planet. Spock intended the same thing with the supernova.
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