Much has been made about the alternate reality/time line as presented in Star trek 2009. I wish to submit that the events depicted both before and after Nero's journey into the past were never part of the original Star Trek universe as depicted in the original series and movies. The biggest support for this is Spock prime himself.The Spock we know from the original series would never have just accepted the Nero created alternate time line as an alternate universe.In the classic episode City on the Edge of Forever Spock was adamant about stopping McCoy so that millions would not die who did not die before. But isn't this exactly what happened in Star Trek 2009? History was altered and with the destruction of Vulcan millions died who did not die before. The Spock we know from the original series would have done anything and everything to restore history and the time line to its proper form. Bot this Spock does nothing of the sort. Who is this Spock? I submit that he came from and exists in a reality where the laws of temporal physics function differently than those presented in the original series. In Spock Prime's reality it is apparent that when history is altered by time travel into the past an alternate reality is created leaving the original reality unchanged. From Spock Prime's point of view their is no reason to undo Nero's act because the original reality was not destroyed and still exists and is totally unaffected. This is not the Spock from the original series. Original series Spock's reality was and is that if change the past you alter your own time line not create an alternate universe. The characters depicted in Star trek 2009 are not and never were the characters we know from the original series. The reality depicted in Star Trek 2009 was already an alternate reality from the one we know before Nero traveled into the past. All Nero did was create yet another alternate reality from that reality as a result of the alternate way that temporal physics function in that universe. The original series universe is as it always was and was never depicted in Star Trek 2009.
Alternate reality vs. altered timeline
- Thread starter lorrak7
- Start date
For everyone's convenience ...
As for the topic at hand ... Personally, I'd say it's better one doesn't think to much about all this alternative universe stuff. They wanted to tell a story where the characters' destiny isn't yet set in stone. And they wanted to include Leonard Nimoy as Spock. So they wrote a script that includes both of these ideas. There's really nothing more to it, methinks.
Nowhere Man
Commodore
I didn't want to get into this agian, so I'll give you my thoughts from a former thread.
What we do know is that the alternate universe began at the very moment that the Kelvin was destroyed, so everything that occured up until that point was part of the prime universe and the people who were alive at that time are still alive. The Botany Bay,the Doomsday Machine, The Gardian or anything else still exists, but dosen't mean Kirk and crew will encounter them. I would argue that the only out of place is prime Spock, who I would think is in violation of the temperal prime directive. I would also argue that Spock prime could convince Kirk and crew to help him restore the timeline and go to the Gardian planet (Spock prime knows where it is) the Gardian is in charge of all time including alternate realities and could send Spock Prime back to the future(not intended).He could prevent the destruction of Romulus which would create an everlasting peace between The Federation and the newly formed Romulan Republic , which is headed by Nero, who is hearalded as the savior of Romulus along with Spock. This would restore and or merge the two universes and no ones the wiser exept Spock, Kirk and Mcoy. This could also be a way that Kirk dosen't end up in the Nexus. How's that for a two part sequel . I believe that it is Spock from TOS, but since he probably realizes that theres no way to get back and it's not the TOS timeline, then it would be Illogical to try and restore things. personally , I would look at it like the alternate timeline in Yesterday's Enterprise from TNG. It would be prudent for Spock to try and restore things, but the truth is, Orci and Kurtzman either fucked up and forgot about that episode,or they just didn't give a fuck and wanted no way for Spock to return or restore the the timeline. Another opinionion I made on the same thread,I don't see the alternate timeline as the prime timeline, it's been said in interviews and the movie that the prime timeline are two seperate things. Do you ever watch the Universe on the history channel? One of the most recent episodes dealt with this issue. Imigine the universe is a piece of paper and parralel to that piece of paper is another piece of paper. These two pieces of paper could be identical or they could be slightly different, or they could be completely different. I think that the universe we saw in the movie is slightly different than our own, the prime universe. I also think that these are the theories that the writers were looking at and talking about when they wrote the movie.
You'd be wrong, though.
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Nero's act of communicating with, then destroying the USS Kelvin didn't cause a new universe to suddenly pop into existence. The black hole created a duplicate shortly before the Narada emerged. A universe identical in every respect to the Prime one up until that moment. The only difference being there would have been be no unusual activity from the black hole to divert the U.S.S. Kelvin from its return journey to Earth, where we assume a pregnant Winona Kirk would have reached Iowa and given birth.
Ironic that it should actually come down to me defending this film.
I guess if the Kelvin had just ignored that black hole and gone straight home, we would have had two ever so slightly similar versions of the Original Series. Where James Kirk was an over achieving bookworm, who despite hard work still took more than a decade to reach the Captain's chair.
So that's the moral lesson to take from Star Trek right now. Don't stay in school kids... because what would be the point? Even if you end up being a loud mouth in a bar, you'll still find your true calling in life because there's really no such thing as free-will. Everyone has a destiny to arrive at. If you're a complete jerk, chances are you'll get there sooner...
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No, this is essentially correct, and aligns perfectly with the Many Worlds theory as stated by Orci and Kurtzman.
Actually, up until the "Lighning Storm In Space" appears, it is the same universe. The universe then duplicates itself at that decision point to become another part of the Multiverse.
Which is why it wasn't so much time travel as most everyone has called it, but universe travel. Or to put it another way, Nero and Spock Prime weren't so much thrown back in time as they were carried to a point in the time of another universe created by the black hole.
In a way, it would've been silly for them to try to keep from "changing" anything, because once they're there, there'd be nothing to change. They are a legitimate part of that new universe. Whatever they do is "supposed" to happen. At least I kinda think that's so. Such thinking always gets into headache-inducing territory for me.
Wiat, wait, hold on, let me look up one of my canned responses form the first thousand times this was brought up:
"He saved the whole planet!"
Wait, that's not it... uh (rummage rummage)
"700 meters!"
No, damnit, that's not it either...
"Sombrero!"
"He saved the whole planet!"
Wait, that's not it... uh (rummage rummage)
"700 meters!"
No, damnit, that's not it either...
"Sombrero!"
Young Christopher? Frankly, I don't know whether to be annoyed or flattered by that. I'll get back to you next birthday.
They were the same universe until the Black Hole started acting up. That presumably was the moment the duplicate one came into existence. We saw the Narada emerge and the damage it did there.
So that leaves two possibilities for the Prime Universe:
The Kelvin doesn't notice anything going on with that Black Hole and continues on its way. Maybe that lightning doesn't happen in both universes, only the one in which the Narada is about to arrive.
The Kelvin does notice something going on. Moves in for a closer look. Takes some readings. Nothing happens and it continues on its way.
What is confusing here is how the writers applied all that quantum theory stuff. Basically it runs something like, all possible outcomes of decisions are played out. It's TNG Parallels isn't it? That's why some are saying Nero's actions are the cause. But the way the story goes, it's all so much red matter creating a black hole, connecting two places - one near Romulus (24c Prime) to wherever the Kelvin was, someplace near Klingon space (but in a copy of the 23c).
So that leaves two possibilities for the Prime Universe:
The Kelvin doesn't notice anything going on with that Black Hole and continues on its way. Maybe that lightning doesn't happen in both universes, only the one in which the Narada is about to arrive.
The Kelvin does notice something going on. Moves in for a closer look. Takes some readings. Nothing happens and it continues on its way.
What is confusing here is how the writers applied all that quantum theory stuff. Basically it runs something like, all possible outcomes of decisions are played out. It's TNG Parallels isn't it? That's why some are saying Nero's actions are the cause. But the way the story goes, it's all so much red matter creating a black hole, connecting two places - one near Romulus (24c Prime) to wherever the Kelvin was, someplace near Klingon space (but in a copy of the 23c).
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startrekrcks
Fleet Captain
debates are raging please try to accept the alternate route they went with.
I actually wished they had told a straight forward origin story... Sweated pre-established backstory to honor the original characters, glossed over set design changes due to production values and just ignored complaints from purists about how it's not as they imagined it... in other words, like a 50's sci fi flick.
They did some of that for sure, but went too far to wipe the slate completely clean and rebuild characters from the ground up. It's a problem I think the James Bond franchise is going to discover soon too. When you dismantle famous icons and try putting them back together, the writers need to be exceptionally careful to get it right. Rewiring Kirk's motivation for being in Starfleet took away something very important for me.
They did some of that for sure, but went too far to wipe the slate completely clean and rebuild characters from the ground up. It's a problem I think the James Bond franchise is going to discover soon too. When you dismantle famous icons and try putting them back together, the writers need to be exceptionally careful to get it right. Rewiring Kirk's motivation for being in Starfleet took away something very important for me.
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Different, occidental earth-centric stardate system, Robau wearing the Enterprise delta arrow thingy long before he actually should, leading zero in the NCC registry = alternate universe.
Well nothing has ever been established about the time period immediately following ENT, running into The Cage and onto Where No Man Has Gone Before.
Starfleet/UESPA already used that arrowhead for the whole organisation, albeit at a NASA style take-off angle. We didn't spend more than an hour in Captain Pike's time and didn't hear a single stardate... although I can easily imagine him calling out calendar dates. In Kirk's first appearance, they're only on 1312.2 or something... indicating there had only been slightly more than a year since it began. Perhaps they switched from using the Kelvin era dating system for Starfleet records at the start of the 5 year mission?
The zero registry I can let fly because somebody just took the NX-01 as precidence without thinking about the consequences for Federation starships... That doesn't bother me personally but I imagine The Wormhole regularly bursts a blood vessel anytime he thinks about it!
Starfleet/UESPA already used that arrowhead for the whole organisation, albeit at a NASA style take-off angle. We didn't spend more than an hour in Captain Pike's time and didn't hear a single stardate... although I can easily imagine him calling out calendar dates. In Kirk's first appearance, they're only on 1312.2 or something... indicating there had only been slightly more than a year since it began. Perhaps they switched from using the Kelvin era dating system for Starfleet records at the start of the 5 year mission?
The zero registry I can let fly because somebody just took the NX-01 as precidence without thinking about the consequences for Federation starships... That doesn't bother me personally but I imagine The Wormhole regularly bursts a blood vessel anytime he thinks about it!
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Yeah, they were switching from the earth centric system to a neutral one, and then, by the year 2387, back to the earth centric system. And they won't be switching to the TOS/TNG stardate system in this new alternate universe, because Nero's time travel influences them into staying with the earth centric system.
I mean, it doesn't really take too much thought, does it? We know that in TOS, Starfleet had a boomerang logo, and that each ship crew had a different delta on their uniforms. Only after the historic 5-year-mission they gave Starfleet the Enterprise delta.
I mean, it doesn't really take too much thought, does it? We know that in TOS, Starfleet had a boomerang logo, and that each ship crew had a different delta on their uniforms. Only after the historic 5-year-mission they gave Starfleet the Enterprise delta.
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