Alternate Nemesis Ship Concepts

[Locutus of Bored]

I guess this fits here as much as in Trek Tech, but if the mods want to move it go ahead.

This site was posted on my forums and featured some 'Nemesis' concept art I had never seen before. You guys might have seen it already, but I just thought I'd share.

I really like the Scimitar design. It fits as something built with Romulan cast-off parts rather than looking like an entirely unique (though sort of Dominion-y) ship like the movie Scimitar did. The cut-outs/ribs in the "wings" give it an incomplete feel like it was rushed out of the docks and pressed into service. The wings are somewhat reminiscent of the Son'a ships from 'Insurrection' in that respect, though (not that that's a bad thing).

The first Argo concept looks more like a small starship in the Defiant range rather than something that's meant to fit in the Enterprise-E shuttlebay, but it's a nice design.

The second one looks a bit too small to be carrying around Picard's mid-life crisis buggy.

I really like the third design though. Not that the Argo shuttle we got in the film was bad (it's actually pretty good, if rather conventional), but it would have been nice to get something like this in the film.

All in all, some interesting designs.

 

[Timo]

Agreed on the alternate Scimitar: the staggered, hollow wings suggest this is a perverse, tortured form of Romulan shipbuilding, complete with a throne-like command center atop the stern for a power-mad leader.

All the shuttle designs suffer from not being very good for their dramatic purpose: they don't have doors from which our heroes could emerge on the surface of the alien world! Admittedly, the version we ultimately got didn't have any access doors, either, save for the aft one for launching the buggy. The exact same problem plagues the ST:INS designs.

Still, the progression from the complex, seemingly overgunned, low-volume first design to the relatively boxy and utilitarian third is a promising one. If we think of the movie version as number four on this sequence, I'd have been happy with number five...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kirby]

I like the Scimitar concept design much better than the one we actually had in the film. I suspect that it was considered "too ugly" for general audiences and for Star Trek in general.
The first Argo shuttle design looks like a miniture Defiant with a roll bar. I like that design a lot better than what we got.

 

[USS Mariner]

The Second Argo seems like the best out of the three, keeping in mind that these are concepts and not final drafts. It look as if it's a Runabout relative, which I especially like. The others don't seem to fit the bill, as if they were originally intended for other purposes and then downsized (especially the Defiantesque design, which just needs to lose the rollbar.)

The Scimitar kicks ass.

 

[Unicron]

Well, I'll be in minority and say I'm glad this Scimitar wasn't used. It looks worse than the official version, and that one heavily borrowed from the Jem'Hadar battleship.

 

[ancient]

I always found it a little odd that a Reman slave could secretly build a ship without the Romulans knowing. And that it would have more advanced technology than anything the Romulans have. And that it'd be like 5 times bigger than the Federation flagship.

Must've taken a while to smuggle in the parts by hiding them in his socks, I guess.

 

[Timo]

I always found it a little odd that a Reman slave could secretly build a ship without the Romulans knowing.

Why should we think that anything like that happened?

The Scimitar was probably built by Reman slaves as slave labor supervised by Romulans, for use by Romulans. It's just that she was built in a "secret base", that is, a base that was secret from the spies of the Klingons and the Federation - and that she ended up in Reman hands as the result of the revolt.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I always found it a little odd that a Reman slave could secretly build a ship without the Romulans knowing. And that it would have more advanced technology than anything the Romulans have. And that it'd be like 5 times bigger than the Federation flagship.

Must've taken a while to smuggle in the parts by hiding them in his socks, I guess.

I was always fond of the idea that Shinzon captured a Dominion prototype vessel equipped with the thalaron weapon during one of the many battles he won during the war. Maybe the Dominion was developing the thalaron weapon in retaliation for the disease that was killing the Founders. One of the Strange New Worlds short stories mentions the thalaron weapon being discovered on a Dominion base, though not the Scimitar itself.

Then he smuggled the Scimitar back to a secret base he controlled (perhaps a captured Dominion forward base he failed to report) and gradually smuggled out parts and technologies skimmed from the Reman weapon's making and shipbuilding for the Romulans over a period of four years until the ship was complete.

 

[Timo]

But the first half of the movie shows that Shinzon is working for a Romulan faction. It would make sense to assume that this faction helped him escape and mount the rebellion, and furthermore to commandeer the Romulan supervessel he had built and use that as a trump card in the rebellion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Locutus of Bored]

But the first half of the movie shows that Shinzon is working for a Romulan faction. It would make sense to assume that this faction helped him escape and mount the rebellion, and furthermore to commandeer the Romulan supervessel he had built and use that as a trump card in the rebellion.

He was working for them? It was clearly the other way around, or at best an extremely wary partnership. If the Romulan military could have had access to the ship and all of its weaponry beforehand, why wouldn't they just take it for themselves without having to put a member of a hated subclass who himself hates Romulans into power? Shinzon's chief selling point without the ship and the thalaron weapon was that he was a skilled commander, but surely the Romulans have some skilled commanders of their own, at least enough to not have to rely on a slave who's just as likely to kill them once he consolidates his power.

The Romulans (some of them at least) questioned his stalling with Picard, disagreed with exterminating Earth once Donatra realized that was his intent, and were willing to turn on him at the drop of a hat. That doesn't strike me as a solid partnership. It strikes me as Shinzon reveals to the Romulan military that he has a weapon capable of wiping out all life on Romulus and the means to deliver it undetected, and you can either join him and help him conquer Earth (something that appeals to the military), or you can die.

To me, the "secret base" comment clearly implied that it was secret from the Romulans, not the Klingons or Federation or anyone else, though that would also be true. Why would he bother mentioning that it was secret to the Klingons or Federation in that context, when that's obvious and irrelevant? Clearly they didn't know about the Scimitar beforehand or it wouldn't have been a surprise, which makes it a redundant comment. Picard was inquiring how he managed to pull off the coup, and he was explaining himself.

 

[Timo]

He was working for them? It was clearly the other way around, or at best an extremely wary partnership.

It just seems that there is no way in hell Shinzon's slave rebellion could have worked unless it was orchestrated by a Romulan faction. Naturally, that faction would be wary about its Spartacus, and ready to drop him at a moment's notice. But a slave rebellion would still be a very good way for a small faction to gain fighting strength rapidly - yet once power was solidated again, it shouldn't be any problem to return to status quo, either, as Remans would be at a disadvantage no matter what.

The Romulans (some of them at least) questioned his stalling with Picard, disagreed with exterminating Earth once Donatra realized that was his intent, and were willing to turn on him at the drop of a hat. That doesn't strike me as a solid partnership.

Well, of course not. Shinzon and the Remans were animals, so there could never be a solid partnership with them. They'd be let out to crush the current regime in a stampede, then slaughtered once a new regime was in place. It's just that things didn't work out quite that way when Shinzon had a lunatic agenda of his own.

It strikes me as Shinzon reveals to the Romulan military that he has a weapon capable of wiping out all life on Romulus and the means to deliver it undetected, and you can either join him and help him conquer Earth (something that appeals to the military), or you can die.

It might work that way, too. But that would presuppose that a slave toiling in a mine, or a foot soldier being hauled from one battle to another, would come up with the superweapon. The opposite sounds easier to swallow: that the Romulans orchestrated the slave rebellion and chose a figurehead for it, but got more than they bargained for.

Not that they'd have gotten significantly more. Shinzon's power was never secure, and he seemed to command a grand total of one starship against the Romulan fleet's thousands. It was only as long as the Romulan military, or the factions in command of it, cooperated with Shinzon that he was entitled to the big chair at the Senate building.

Also, the idea of using the weapon against external enemies seemed to surprise and alarm every Romulan in the movie. Clearly, none of Shinzon's allies had agreed to such a thing... When Shinzon wasted the first full-scale model of the superweapon on his silly quest for vengeance, Romulans from all factions must have been extremely disappointed - but OTOH relieved since Shinzon's one-shot effort essentially ended not just his reign but the slave rebellion as well.

Why would he bother mentioning that it was secret to the Klingons or Federation in that context, when that's obvious and irrelevant? Clearly they didn't know about the Scimitar beforehand or it wouldn't have been a surprise, which makes it a redundant comment. Picard was inquiring how he managed to pull off the coup, and he was explaining himself.

That may be how the writers wrote it, but since the plot overall makes more sense the other way around, the words could be interpreted differently, too.

The ship did come as a rude surprise to Picard, so Shinzon might want to brag on the fact that something that powerful was indeed built in secrecy from Starfleet (and, no doubt, from some if not most people down on Romulus, let alone Remus). It's not as if this particular tidbit is an important part of the discussion in either interpretation of the events; it's just something that Shinzon likes to point out, perhaps because he himself worked in that secret base on that ship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

I always found it a little odd that a Reman slave could secretly build a ship without the Romulans knowing.

Why should we think that anything like that happened?

That's what the movie implies.

The Scimitar was probably built by Reman slaves as slave labor supervised by Romulans, for use by Romulans. It's just that she was built in a "secret base", that is, a base that was secret from the spies of the Klingons and the Federation - and that she ended up in Reman hands as the result of the revolt.

This seems unlikely. In the movie it's pretty clear that the entire ship is a big Thalerwhatever generator, and probably one-of-a-kind. Since that little fact seems to have escaped the Romulan's attention, I don't think they designed it.

I mean, what the hell do they think he's going to do with a planet-destroying weapon? The Romlans sure are a bit slow on the uptake. He keeps saying that he'll cripple the federation in 2 days or whatnot. The Romulans don't seem to know wtf is going on the entire time.

The movie implies that Shinzon built the ship. He doesn't say "I stole the Schimitar from a secret base." He says that he "built" it. Granted, you can wiggle out of the most obvious interpretation, but the movie seems to want us to think that Shinzon is so AWESOME he can build an Uber-weapon right under the Romulan Military's nose.

Then again, the very muddled background and motivation of Shinzon is one of the movie's main downers.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

That may be how the writers wrote it, but since the plot overall makes more sense the other way around, the words could be interpreted differently, too.

How does the Romulan military voluntarily giving a slave army that justifiably hates their guts total control - without any failsafe - of a weapon that can wipe out all life on a planet and a fire-while-cloaked delivery system make more sense?

How does making Shinzon Praetor and having to kiss his ass when he couldn't have pulled it off without your help make more sense? Shinzon threatened to kill the head of the Romulan military faction for questioning his judgment. Why would the Romulan military voluntarily put themselves in a subservient position to people they considered vermin and cannon fodder, regardless of the possible gains?

What could having Shinzon's help give them that they didn't already have, using your scenario? If they already had the ship, if they already had the thalaron weapon, if they already had Reman slaves they could have used as cannon fodder against their enemies, all that leaves as an added bonus for supporting this rebellion is the at worst vengeful and at best completely unpredictable Shinzon.

Granted, Nemesis is chock full of things that don't make a whole lot of sense, but why compound the issue when the implication is clearly that Shinzon built or captured and repaired the ship outside of the watchful eye of the Romulans?

 

[Gepard]

Still, the progression from the complex, seemingly overgunned, low-volume first design to the relatively boxy and utilitarian third is a promising one. If we think of the movie version as number four on this sequence, I'd have been happy with number five...

Not to be too much of a buzzkill, but do we know that this Tex Katonaga guy ever actually worked for Parmount and/or Digital Domain? His info page doesn't list it; he seems to have been working for Rhythm & Hues at the time NEM was in production.

This smells to me like fanart done by a pro.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Not to be too much of a buzzkill, but do we know that this Tex Katonaga guy ever actually worked for Parmount and/or Digital Domain? His info page doesn't list it; he seems to have been working for Rhythm & Hues at the time NEM was in production.

This smells to me like fanart done by a pro.

He never worked for Paramount. From his site:

Created for the upcoming "Star Trek: Nemesis" film as part of a proposal by Rhythm + Hues, these spacecraft had to work within the visual style which has been firmly established by the previous movies and television series. Sadly the contract was awarded to another visual effects house.

 

[Cyke101]

I must admit, I like this Scimitar. Call me crazy (actually, don't), but the ship looks a bit like Victorian steampunk to me.

 

[Gepard]

He never worked for Paramount. From his site:

Created for the upcoming "Star Trek: Nemesis" film as part of a proposal by Rhythm + Hues, these spacecraft had to work within the visual style which has been firmly established by the previous movies and television series. Sadly the contract was awarded to another visual effects house.

Cool. Good to know.

I'm rather surprised that concept design work was part of the VFX pitch; wasn't the whole point of having John Eaves on staff that Paramount could do all of that in-house? (I know that Digital Domain ended up designing the workbees for NEM, and ILM designed the Akira class and other background ships for FC, but I was always under the impression that using the VFX designers was a fallback position for when the main design team failed to come up with something the producers liked. But then again, that may be why Paramount wanted design work as part of the pitch. I think I just answered my own question. )

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I must admit, I like this Scimitar. Call me crazy (actually, don't), but the ship looks a bit like Victorian steampunk to me.

Nah, you're absolutely right. I definitely see some Steampunk influence there.

 

[Timo]

What could having Shinzon's help give them that they didn't already have, using your scenario? If they already had the ship, if they already had the thalaron weapon, if they already had Reman slaves they could have used as cannon fodder against their enemies, all that leaves as an added bonus for supporting this rebellion is the at worst vengeful and at best completely unpredictable Shinzon.

From the opening scenes of the movie, and the later deliberations between Shinzon and his Romulan allies, it seems clear that the military is under the heel of the Senate, and is itching to attack the Federation but is strictry banned from doing so. What would Shinzon give the Romulan military? Put short, perfect legitimacy.

As the movie opens, there's obviously a violent slave rebellion going on, and the military tries to make the best of it by telling the Senate to ally with the Spartacus figure and then go to war against external enemies. The ace in the rebels' sleeve is their surprising military might, necessary for "forcing" the Romulans to the negotiating tables. That's the military's Plan A, impossible had there not been a Shinzon to lead the rebellion, impossible had Shinzon not been given long enough a leash and sharp enough teeth.

When it fails, the Senate is swept aside, but the slave rebellion continues to provide legitimacy for whatever the military chooses to do. A charismatic leader to control the Remans, a partner to negotiate with for the benefit of the Romulan public. I don't see how the fleet could have proceeded without empowering a Spartacus, and I don't really see that they would have been seriously shortchanged when this Spartacus started to stall and misuse his new toys. If the assumption is that the Scimitar is of Romulan make, then the fleet could build more; the one in the hands of the madman wouldn't matter all that much. For all we know, it could be full of failsafes preventing the use of the thalaron weapon against Romulus...

Of course, that's just one possible scenario, the other being that Shinzon built the weapon and the ship all by himself. But somehow, this alternative sounds more realistic...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

I dunno about anyone else, but I was hopping for a particular bit of dialog that they didn't use.

Romulan Centurion "Preator, the Remans are revolting!"

Preator "I know they are, not tell me what all that weapons fire is from!"