Allen Iverson arrives in Turkey

[Alidar Jarok]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...ces_whole_new_ballgame_playing_in_Turkey.html

THE ANTICIPATION in Istanbul has been immense. Allen Iverson is coming. The news has been swirling for weeks. It does not seem to matter that Iverson is 35, that his best days are behind him, that he struggled last season in three games with the Memphis Grizzlies and 25 with the 76ers. All that matters is, Allen Iverson is coming. In true Iverson fashion, he was supposed to be there Saturday, to be greeted by throngs of people, to sign autographs, to be introduced to his new teammates with Besiktas. But he missed his flight, supposedly because he arrived at the airport without his passport. (Where, oh where, have we heard something like that before?)

Later on:

Former Sixers teammate Aaron McKie feels a certain sense of sadness in seeing Iverson pursuing his career overseas rather than in the NBA. But no NBA team tendered an offer this season, and Iverson clearly wanted to continue playing.

"The sadness is from the standpoint of what he brought to this game, how he changed the game," said McKie, now an assistant coach with the Sixers. "He scored so well, everybody started going with small lineups. He brought a hip-hop culture to basketball. Kids idolized him, wanted to be like him. His rightful place is in the NBA; he should be celebrated and retiring with a team here. He can [still] score 15-20 points with his eyes closed.

Anyone have thoughts here. Obviously, he's not the player he once was. But he was such a fun player to watch in his prime, that it's a shame to see him end up here.

 

[Roger Wilco]

This is not as big a step down as you think imo. It's not the NBA, but the people in that region, Greece-Turkey-Yugoslavia take basketball very seriously. And they have money.

 

[Garak]

He's a fucking douchebag that thinks he's better than everyone else. It's completely no surprise this guy never won a championship.

Good luck with all that, Turkey.

 

[gblews]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...ces_whole_new_ballgame_playing_in_Turkey.html

Former Sixers teammate Aaron McKie feels a certain sense of sadness in seeing Iverson pursuing his career overseas rather than in the NBA. But no NBA team tendered an offer this season, and Iverson clearly wanted to continue playing.

"The sadness is from the standpoint of what he brought to this game, how he changed the game," said McKie, now an assistant coach with the Sixers. "He scored so well, everybody started going with small lineups. He brought a hip-hop culture to basketball. Kids idolized him, wanted to be like him. His rightful place is in the NBA; he should be celebrated and retiring with a team here. He can [still] score 15-20 points with his eyes closed.

Anyone have thoughts here. Obviously, he's not the player he once was. But he was such a fun player to watch in his prime, that it's a shame to see him end up here.

I suppose it would be sad if Iverson had been a different player. But as it was, his selfishness, aversion to hard work ("I'm talkin' bout PRACTISE"), his loser mentality, just keep me feeling a lot of things, but sadness is not one of them. Talk about a waste of God given talent, and the only reason he has to play in Turkey is because no team wants to take a chance on him ruining their chemistry.

I would sure like to know how Aaron McKie thinks Iverson changed the game. A.I. certainly wasn't the first little guy who could score or get to the rim. I think his main influence was the whole "and 1" movement going on in New York which is the scurge of basketball fundamentals.

As for his scoring, it was misleading as was his "warrior" mentality. He was only a "warrior" in that he would sacrifice his body to shoot way too much (and usually miss) but forget about him using that same "warrior" mentality to set up others to score.

Iverson could have been on a team that won a championship but because he would not set aside his ego, he ends his career as a loser playing in Turkey.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Actually, that's not true. Watch him in the Olympics (where he was one of the few players who cared, incidentally), watch him on later teams. He was willing to pass. He didn't have many people around him who could shoot or score. Look at who his help was, a washed up Derrick Coleman, a washed up Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo.

Probably his best help was Aaron McKie and, briefly, Tony Kukoc (who was traded halfway through 2001 so the Sixers could get Mutombo).

So, yes, Allen Iverson's work ethic when it came to practice was terrible. But, he played hard 48 minutes a night and tried to get his teammates involved. He just didn't have much support.

 

[gblews]

Actually, that's not true. Watch him in the Olympics (where he was one of the few players who cared, incidentally), watch him on later teams. He was willing to pass. He didn't have many people around him who could shoot or score. Look at who his help was, a washed up Derrick Coleman, a washed up Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo.

Probably his best help was Aaron McKie and, briefly, Tony Kukoc (who was traded halfway through 2001 so the Sixers could get Mutombo).

So, yes, Allen Iverson's work ethic when it came to practice was terrible. But, he played hard 48 minutes a night and tried to get his teammates involved. He just didn't have much support.

Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year while he was playing with Iverson. Aaron McKee was 6th Man of the year while with Iverson. Larry Brown was Coach of the Year while coaching Iverson. Yeah, he had support.

But it's not really about his willingness to pass, his problem was greater than that.

Iverson played hard as long as it was all about him. That desire to be the focal point exceeded his desire to win. He could have helped a team win a championship but he was unwilling to sacrifice - to come off the bench, to become a role player (albeit a very skilled role player), if that's what it took.

The problem was that he was always a "tweener", not enough of a facilitator to fill the role of a true point guard, and too small to fill the role of true 2 guard. I never thought any team giving him starter minutes was going to win a championship. He was also just too much of a liability on defense to warrant starter minutes on a serious contender. But Allen couldn't
see this and refused to come off the bench even this late in his career.

Oh he wanted to win, but only on his terms. That, my friend, in a team sport, is the definition of loser.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Mutombo and McKie won their awards in 2001. During that year, the Los Angeles Lakers lost exactly one game in the playoffs. The fact that the Sixers pulled off that game was a minor miracle in itself. The next year, the NBA changed the illegal defense rule to reward ranged shooting and to benefit faster centers who could run back to the middle. Certainly, the Sixers were never a three point shooting team (McKie was their best shooter, but he has a ridiculously slow release and was fairly inconsistent). It wouldn't surprise me if Mutombo has the record for defensive three second violations. In 2002, they traded Mutombo for Keith Van Horn. The next year they tried Derick Coleman. You can't seriously say either of those players were significant help.

In the 04-05 season, when he had Webber (when Webber was healthy at least), he averaged 30 ppg and almost 8 assists per game. That's fairly good numbers and certainly indicate that when he had somebody to pass to, he did so and did so effectively.

 

[gblews]

In the 04-05 season, when he had Webber (when Webber was healthy at least), he averaged 30 ppg and almost 8 assists per game. That's fairly good numbers and certainly indicate that when he had somebody to pass to, he did so and did so effectively.

You keep trying to limit this to a discussion of Iverson's willingness to pass the ball, only. Did you read this part of my preceding post:

But it's not really about his willingness to pass, his problem was greater than that.

Iverson played hard as long as it was all about him. That desire to be the focal point exceeded his desire to win. He could have helped a team win a championship but he was unwilling to sacrifice - to come off the bench, to become a role player (albeit a very skilled role player), if that's what it took.

The problem was that he was always a "tweener", not enough of a facilitator to fill the role of a true point guard, and too small to fill the role of true 2 guard. I never thought any team giving him starter minutes was going to win a championship. He was also just too much of a liability on defense to warrant starter minutes on a serious contender. But Allen couldn't
see this and refused to come off the bench even this late in his career.

Oh he wanted to win, but only on his terms. That, my friend, in a team sport, is the definition of loser.

The reason Iverson has been forced to play in Turkey is not solely about his passing - it is about his overall attitude and approach to the game which are as anti team and therefore, anti winning, as it gets.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

See, I don't think he was anti-team. I think he just didn't have enough of a team. He took all the shots because he had to take all the shots.

Now he was a liability on defense, but not because of his attitude. He compensated for his height as best as possible by being an aggressive defensive player (led the league in steals more than once. He was defensive player of the year for the Big East back when he played for Georgetown).

As for coming off the bench, I think that, until recently, it was still a waste to have him be a bench player. The energy he brought to the game was something that could be used best in starter minutes. Right now, I agree, he should be a bench player, but I still feel he can be a bench player in the NBA (which, apparently, teams in the league disagree with). Now I'm not saying he was perfect, but his reputation over the years has been seriously overblown.

 

[gblews]

Now he was a liability on defense, but not because of his attitude. He compensated for his height as best as possible by being an aggressive defensive player (led the league in steals more than once. He was defensive player of the year for the Big East back when he played for Georgetown).

Allen has never been a good defender. His defensive recognition has always come from being able to steal the ball which is related to his superior athletic ability. This has always drawn attention from fans and the sportswriters who vote for these awards. I would love to hear the shooting percentages of players Allen "guarded' game after game. During the Larry Brown era he was backed up on defense by some guys who could play defense, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, and even Mutombo. Allen's gambling for steals never constituted good defense.

As for coming off the bench, I think that, until recently, it was still a waste to have him be a bench player. The energy he brought to the game was something that could be used best in starter minutes. Right now, I agree, he should be a bench player, but I still feel he can be a bench player in the NBA (which, apparently, teams in the league disagree with). Now I'm not saying he was perfect, but his reputation over the years has been seriously overblown.

I believe just the opposite with regard to his minutes.

Lets say he was with the Lakers and in his prime, because of his defensive liabilities and need to have the ball in his hands to be effective, coupled with the Lakers desire to win championships, the more time Allen is on the court, the bigger the problem. Now lets say that Allen learns to play without the ball and was willing to come off the bench, thqt would likely solve the need-to-have-the-ball problem, but there are still his problems on defense. But Allen even as of a this past season let it be known that he was not willing to come off the bench so we know he wouldn't have been willing in his prime. That energy you speak of could have been just as effective in 20 to 25 minute bursts.

This is how players win championships; they are willing to sacrifice some parts of their game for the greater good of winning a ring. A.I. was never willing to sacrifice any parts of his game (and I'm not just talking about scoring and passing here) in order to win a championship and he simply wasn't enough of an impact player to make this okay. Even Jordan had to sacrifice parts of his game, so has Kobe, so has just about every champion except maybe Shaq. And the aforementioned were all better players than A.I. and they were all willing to sacrifice - but not A.I.

This is about his attitude which has always been his biggest problem. I told a friend of mine (who is from Philly) years ago that Iverson would never be on an NBA championship team. So far, I have been right. The reason is because he will never sacrifice who he perceives himself to be on court. THIS is anti team. Forget about his passing and shooting for a moment - there are bigger things going on here.

A.I. could never have been a starter on a Phil Jackson/Tex Winter team. Their approach to basketball is entirely about team and sacrifice.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The Laker's were about team and sacrifice? They had great selfless role players, but that's not the same thing.

His defensive liabilities had to do with his height, not his character, to be fair.

 

[gblews]

The Laker's were about team and sacrifice? They had great selfless role players, but that's not the same thing.

Not sure which Lakers' teams you're talking about when say "were", but the current 2 time champs and the early 2000's 3 time champs were all about team and sacrifice. That is the only way championships are won. Kobe had to sacrifice parts of his game when we had Shaq, and so did several others, just like current players like Pau have to sacrifice parts of their games in order to win rings. Sacrifice for the good of the team is what selfless players do.

His defensive liabilities had to do with his height, not his character, to be fair.

Regardless of the reasons (and it was more than just his height), he was a defensive liability, which, along with his penchant for shooting too much and missing, is why I keep writing that Iverson was a guy whose time on the floor has always needed to be controlled if a team with him on it wants to win a championship.

Tex Winter would probably have quit working for the Lakers if they'd had Allen.