Allegory of Holocaust?

[drmick]

I'm new here, so I apologise if it was discussed previously but does anybody get a strong Holocaust type vibe from the destruction of Vulcan?

If that was intentional on the part of the producers, it may not have been subtle enough for today's political climate (IMO).

 

[startrekwatcher]

No, I think any attempt to find an allegory in this film is stretching things. Vulcan's destruction was just a way to remove all doubt that this is a new timeline and provide, what in theory, should be a shocking OMG moment in the film--although it didn't quite have that impact on me.

 

[Franklin]

Nope. No vibe. Nero's motives were completely different. No ideology involved. So, no. Nope. No vibe at all. Not even subtle. Nero "went postal" on a massive scale, and that's about it.

 

[flemm]

I'm new here, so I apologise if it was discussed previously but does anybody get a strong Holocaust type vibe from the destruction of Vulcan?

If that was intentional on the part of the producers, it may not have been subtle enough for today's political climate (IMO).

I don't think the movie intended for the viewer to associate the destruction of Vulcan with the Holocaust.

In fact, the destruction of Vulcan was really about two things: (1) a splashy game-changer that establishes the threat to earth and (2) a traumatic experience to aid in developing Spock's character.

The genocide aspect is more of a side-effect of the above two reasons and not really something the movie has the time or the desire the deal with in any appropriate way.

One could argue that a film should not evoke genocide unless it is prepared to give some weight and depth to those events, but frankly given the frequency and banality of seeing various depictions of violence, large-scale bloodshed, torture, war crimes and so on in popular culture, I really doubt anyone was bothered by this aspect of the new Trek.

 

[Phily B]

Not one tiny bit.

Nero killed them for revenge cause he was a crazy mother fucker, pure and simple. Hitler used it as a political play.

 

[karenjeane]

When Star Trek does Nazi analogies, they are not exactly subtle. Swastikas pasted everywhere! Heck, this is true when they do any sort of analogy. (Cold War, anyone ...?)

Agreeing with those above, this was meant to be a "moment" comparable to the destruction of the Enterprise in The Search for Spock and Generations.

I'll admit the destruction got me, but in more of a "why did they do that?" way, not an "OMG NOOOO!!" way. Founding world of the Federation, meh.

 

[drmick]

My history isn't too great unforunately. By holocaust I was more referring to the chronic persecution of Judaism with a massive final execution.

And for future Trek Vulcan stories, there is the possiblity of a creation of an Israel state type story for the Vulcan refugees.

Already in Trek you could have the likes of Andoria and Romulus/Remus representing the other middle-eastern states.

I wasn't comparing Nero to Hitler per se, just comparing the Vulcans (now displaced) to the Jews of WW2

 

[section9]

Not one tiny bit.

Nero killed them for revenge cause he was a crazy mother fucker, pure and simple. Hitler used it as a political play.

Result is the same, however. Vulcans become similar to the "rootless, wandering Jews" of post-WWII Europe. Many of the few which were left ended up in British Mandated Palestine and helped lay the foundation for the State of Israel.

I suspect that Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, and JJ are going to do something similar with the Vulcans, as the Federation has to tackle the problem of where to settle the remaining Vulcan refugees, as well as those Vulcans who have settled elsewhere.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

One could argue that a film should not evoke genocide unless it is prepared to give some weight and depth to those events, but frankly given the frequency and banality of seeing various depictions of violence, large-scale bloodshed, torture, war crimes and so on in popular culture, I really doubt anyone was bothered by this aspect of the new Trek.

I was horrified by the destruction of Alderaan in 1977. A lot of things have blown up since then and it took a while for the end of Vulcan to sink in.

 

[flemm]

I was horrified by the destruction of Alderaan in 1977. A lot of things have blown up since then and it took a while for the end of Vulcan to sink in.

Well, reactions will differ of course. Might your strong reaction be related to the fact that you are a Star Trek fan and therefore very well informed as to the significance of Vulcan?

I'm not sure there was enough about Vulcan in the film itself for the casual viewer to spontaneously relate this event to something as significant as the Holocaust. I felt the focus was more on Spock and his family specifically.

With Spock Prime's group of survivors, I guess the potential is there for the writers to develop the parallel in the future, though I have no idea if that is what they have in store.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I was horrified by the destruction of Alderaan in 1977. A lot of things have blown up since then and it took a while for the end of Vulcan to sink in.

Well, reactions will differ of course. Might your strong reaction be related to the fact that you are a Star Trek fan and therefore very well informed as to the significance of Vulcan?

I'm not sure there was enough about Vulcan in the film itself for the casual viewer to spontaneously relate this event to something as significant as the Holocaust. I felt the focus was more on Spock and his family specifically.

With Spock Prime's group of survivors, I guess the potential is there for the writers to develop the parallel in the future, though I have no idea if that is what they have in store.

I meant my reaction was not initially as strong as my reaction to Alderaan blowing up in 1977. That was a visceral thing, I had never seen the destruction of a whole world before. Of course I had only known one inhabitant of that world for a very short time, compared to Vulcan this was nothing. It's just that I've become a bit jaded to BIG DESTRUCTION.

As to the comparison of the Jews to the Vulcan remnant.. the experience of diaspora is common to many people groups and I don't think there was anything in the movie that made a direct connection to the Holocaust and the Jews.

 

[Franklin]

One could argue that a film should not evoke genocide unless it is prepared to give some weight and depth to those events, but frankly given the frequency and banality of seeing various depictions of violence, large-scale bloodshed, torture, war crimes and so on in popular culture, I really doubt anyone was bothered by this aspect of the new Trek.

I was horrified by the destruction of Alderaan in 1977. A lot of things have blown up since then and it took a while for the end of Vulcan to sink in.

The sad thing is the destruction of Vulcan stood for nothing. It was bascially gratutious violence. That's all. A pissed off guy on a shooting spree. And, it's amazing how many fans are with this because they believe it shows how Abrams was serious about rebooting the franchise.

Come to think of it, compare this reboot with TMP, which was essentially the first reboot. TMP ended with the creation of a totally new and magnificent life form. ST09 has the destruction of an entire planet and its six billion inhabitants.

 

[flemm]

I meant my reaction was not initially as strong as my reaction to Alderaan blowing up in 1977. That was a visceral thing, I had never seen the destruction of a whole world before. Of course I had only known one inhabitant of that world for a very short time, compared to Vulcan this was nothing. It's just that I've become a bit jaded to BIG DESTRUCTION.

Ah ok, I had misunderstood. Right, that is what I was getting at. Audiences are so used to violence on a massive scale in pop culture that I doubt the destruction of Vulcan was read as anything especially significant by the casual viewer.

As to the comparison of the Jews to the Vulcan remnant.. the experience of diaspora is common to many people groups and I don't think there was anything in the movie that made a direct connection to the Holocaust and the Jews.

Agreed.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The sad thing is the destruction of Vulcan stood for nothing. It was bascially gratutious violence. That's all. A pissed off guy on a shooting spree.

The news is full of pissed off guys on shooting sprees. People's understanding of evil these days is that it is arbitrary and without meaning. So for the planet to fall because of NOTHING rather than in the context of war is quite topical.

 

[Scotty]

My history isn't too great unforunately. By holocaust I was more referring to the chronic persecution of Judaism with a massive final execution.

And for future Trek Vulcan stories, there is the possiblity of a creation of an Israel state type story for the Vulcan refugees.

Already in Trek you could have the likes of Andoria and Romulus/Remus representing the other middle-eastern states.

I wasn't comparing Nero to Hitler per se, just comparing the Vulcans (now displaced) to the Jews of WW2

I think any allegory is in the eye of the beholder. Vulcans as jews never even crossed my mind. This is just a summer blockbuster. the destruction of Vulcan was just a way for the writers to up the stakes and distinguish it from the timeline we knew.

 

[Franklin]

The sad thing is the destruction of Vulcan stood for nothing. It was bascially gratutious violence. That's all. A pissed off guy on a shooting spree.

The news is full of pissed off guys on shooting sprees. People's understanding of evil these days is that it is arbitrary and without meaning. So for the planet to fall because of NOTHING rather than in the context of war is quite topical.

True, perhaps. But not good storytelling, at least in my opinion. You're gonna do something on that scale, give it a reason.

 

[Cdr MacDuff]

I think the Holocaust (genocide) angle was completely downplayed. All of it turns out to be more a personal thing. Between Nero and Spock and about Spock losing his mother.

The next movie could deal with the Vulcan displacement, how the whole thing affect them, and their reorganization/colonization on a new planet...as a back story. One of the writers allude to it as a possibility among others. I think it could be interesting. Maybe some kind of "tragedy" can happen during the colonization time for the main storyline (like an attack, kidnapping, strange phenomenon on the planet...).

 

[exalted one]

I suspect that Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, and JJ are going to do something similar with the Vulcans, as the Federation has to tackle the problem of where to settle the remaining Vulcan refugees, as well as those Vulcans who have settled elsewhere.

Spock said he already found a new world for Vulcans.
I doubt he'd have the chutzpah to pick a world that already belongs to someone, like Jews did...

 

[Phily B]

Not one tiny bit.

Nero killed them for revenge cause he was a crazy mother fucker, pure and simple. Hitler used it as a political play.

Result is the same, however. Vulcans become similar to the "rootless, wandering Jews" of post-WWII Europe. Many of the few which were left ended up in British Mandated Palestine and helped lay the foundation for the State of Israel.

I suspect that Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, and JJ are going to do something similar with the Vulcans, as the Federation has to tackle the problem of where to settle the remaining Vulcan refugees, as well as those Vulcans who have settled elsewhere.

Maybe they would in a future TV show - maybe something to do with the Romulans, but I doubt a movie about it. Its not like there is a shortage of M class planets in Federation space.

 

[The Wormhole]

Vulcan's destruction was about providing an epic pretty splosion for the movie. Nothing more. Saying something like it was a Holocaust allegory is reading too far into it. I doubt Abrams and his cohorts even know what the Holocaust it. After all, it had no pretty splosions or Nokia ads.