I apologize if this has been brought up before, but while watching "All Our Yesterdays" on DVD some plot questions occurred to me: Spock and McCoy weren't "prepared" for their new timeline by Mr. Atoz and neither was Kirk. Even Kirk's captor/judge said he was able to go back to the library because his brain waves weren't adjusted for the time period. And yet, Spock reverts to his Vulcan ancestors, eating meat and having anger and love issues. Why? And McCoy "somehow" comes up with the answer that they're not trapped there in the Arctic and could go back whenever they wanted, ("She didn't tell you, did she?") but he wasn't told this solution by anyone. How did he come by this information?
All Our Yesterdays question
- Thread starter tosapanic
- Start date
I doubt Spock going wild was related to the "preparation" thing in any way. We might speculate Vulcans maintain composure partially thanks to an interstellar support network (we know some of their telepathy has interstellar range), meaning that not only would Spock fall outside the reach of this network when traveling to the distant past, he'd probably fall victim to its more savage counterpart from the era.
Perhaps all Vulcanoid planets emit strong emotions, meaning Vulcan would be a haven of security and associated conservatism for Vulcans; their Ambassadors would risk going emotional offworld even on non-telepath worlds; and Spock would especially risk going mad on his Romulan assignment in TNG, and already is mightily compromised in "Balance of Terror" (where he sprouts hotheaded war propaganda) and "The Enterprise Incident" (where a rare romance flares up)? Or perhaps such emotion-emanations aren't particularly strong, but there happened to be a planet of especially savage Vulcanoids close to Sarpeidon?
As for McCoy's "sudden insight", he never realizes he and Spock were not prepared. He merely decides that Zarabeth must be lying about pretty much everything, solely by judging her character - which is the wrong conclusion but gives the right end result nevertheless.
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps all Vulcanoid planets emit strong emotions, meaning Vulcan would be a haven of security and associated conservatism for Vulcans; their Ambassadors would risk going emotional offworld even on non-telepath worlds; and Spock would especially risk going mad on his Romulan assignment in TNG, and already is mightily compromised in "Balance of Terror" (where he sprouts hotheaded war propaganda) and "The Enterprise Incident" (where a rare romance flares up)? Or perhaps such emotion-emanations aren't particularly strong, but there happened to be a planet of especially savage Vulcanoids close to Sarpeidon?
As for McCoy's "sudden insight", he never realizes he and Spock were not prepared. He merely decides that Zarabeth must be lying about pretty much everything, solely by judging her character - which is the wrong conclusion but gives the right end result nevertheless.
Timo Saloniemi
Spock reverts because they have travelled in time, backward, to the time of savagery on Vulcan. I like how there were no established rules for time travel on original Trek. We could still be surprised at how it works.
--------------
McCoy was guessing. It's a bit of a weak point to have him so sure... it was needed to push the story along and create the needed drama, I guess.
The only reasonable conclusion to me is that humanity of 5,000 years ago was more similar to humanity of the 23rd century in its ability to reason than Vulcans of 5,000 years ago were similar to Vulcans of the 23rd century in their ability to reason.
That could mean that 23rd century humans are still savage (cf, "We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! ... We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today," from "A Taste of Armageddon"). Or it could mean that humans of 5,000 years ago were unusually advanced for humanoids in the Alpha Quadrant. Or both, or neither!
That could mean that 23rd century humans are still savage (cf, "We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! ... We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today," from "A Taste of Armageddon"). Or it could mean that humans of 5,000 years ago were unusually advanced for humanoids in the Alpha Quadrant. Or both, or neither!
McCoy found it intolerable to live with Spock and Zarabeth as a loving couple. He was the 3rd wheel. He found Zarabeth attractive, but clearly she was into Spock. What would he do for the rest of his life. He'd rather die than stay there. So, he figured it was worth a shot at going back. And calling Zarabeth a liar just validated his excuse.
In essence, he saved Spock's life. Because had they remained, they'd have died because they weren't "prepared." I don't really understand how that preparation concept really worked, because physiologically we don't change so drastically across time to become "incompatible" with that time. It's all biological. But... it's sci-fi from the 1960's.
Anyway, McCoy was desperate to leave and serendipitous timing, as their appearance at the base of the glacier cliff coincided with Kirk calling out. Very, very lucky!
In essence, he saved Spock's life. Because had they remained, they'd have died because they weren't "prepared." I don't really understand how that preparation concept really worked, because physiologically we don't change so drastically across time to become "incompatible" with that time. It's all biological. But... it's sci-fi from the 1960's.
Anyway, McCoy was desperate to leave and serendipitous timing, as their appearance at the base of the glacier cliff coincided with Kirk calling out. Very, very lucky!
Preparation was a lie. The Atavachron changed you so that once you've passed through the time corridor once, doing so again will kill you. The despot who came up with the technology used it to punish people like Zarabeth, by exiling them to the past in such a way they could never come back.
This would mean that Kirk's twinge of pain before he returned to the present was just a psychosomatic response to the power of suggestion.
Along those same lines, Spock's "reversion" could be all in his head. As he processed the idea of living 5000 years in the past, part of him was wildly celebrating its freedom. This was an isolated world with no social consequences, and besides that, the Vulcan philosophy of logic, so rigid and confining, hadn't even been invented yet. School's out forever. He went wild because he could.
Spock's reaction was kind of like the time on Family Guy when Bonnie got a text leading her to believe that her husband had killed himself. It was time to chuck everything and walk away free, free as a bird:
.
Last edited:
I'd accept that as an explanation.
I don't buy it.
I'll go with how things were presented onscreen, 'cause them Star Trek guys knew what they were doin'.
Well, it is possible... that preparation was a way of "cementing the deal." That if you want to go back in time, you'll have to stay there. You can't go back, change things in your favor, then return to the present to reap the reward. And perhaps the "Atavachron Doctrine" mandated it in such a way to make people WANT to be prepared, because of being falsely told that they'll die after a few hours in a previous time period if they aren't prepared. But that's a fan-extension to the story.
The inherent "flaw" with preparation is the bit about coming back. The magistrate said "To return to the future will mean instant death." How can that be? You don't instantly die when going back in time without preparation... you can survive at least for a few hours. So, by logical reasoning, you should be able to take someone with you from the past forward in time and they'd be able to survive for a few hours. And who knows, perhaps the Atavachron could "prepare" you for living in the new time period! Problem solved. So anyone should be able to return, as long as the Atavachron is functioning properly and can prepare you.
There's only so much "logical reasoning" to be done when the workings of the technology are a mystery to us.
The actual dialogue tells us that the device was used for banishment. It would make sense that it did have a blocker functionality of some sort as standard. The question left open is whether the later, more benevolent use as an evacuation method would entail modifying the time machine so as not to strand people in time - and whether this would even be possible (perhaps the makers of the machine had been executed after completing their work, and nobody knew how to build another atavarchon now?).
All we need to assume is that the return is immediately fatal. And that could be if going through once primes the deathtrap, and going through a second time kills you.
Or then indefinitely - our heroes weren't actually showing symptoms of anything much. Even Spock's natural craving for flesh wasn't hurting him as far as we could tell.
Timo Saloniemi
Spock's reverting never made any sense to me. Vulcans are not born logical, they learn to be logical, so why would going back in time undo all that learning? McCoy didn't revert to being a human savage, without the ability to read, speak English and string a decent sentence together.
The banishment was only for certain people, like Zarabeth. Zarcon apparently did that. But we get the impression from Mr. AtoZ that preparation is a natural part of using the Atavachron. Why would you need to be prepared if you're going back in time, and the "time period" from which you came disappears due to the sun going super nova?
The whole depiction of the Atavachron time travel machine suggests the following: You need to be prepared by the Atavachron for the time period you intend to travel to, because your cell structure and brain patterns need to be adjusted to make your life natural for the time period you arrive at. If you are not transformed you can only survive for a few hours. So the Atavachron can do two things: 1) Send a person to any time period in the past, which is recorded in the library file, and 2) Physically prepare a person such that they can become a permanent resident of a given time period. Preparation seems to be a "one way ticket", in that you cannot go back to your original time period.
I think the "instant death" makes no physiological sense at all. Imagine you go back in time and bring someone with you from the past who is FROM that time period. They should be able to survive for a few hours in the future time period, just as you can survive for a few hours in the past. Now... if the Atavachron prepares you so that you're a "natural" life form of a past time period, why would you instantly die going to the future, when someone else who was born in the past would not die? Makes no sense. I think the "instant death" thing was just a ruse, to scare people from attempting to travel back. But Zarabeth never says "instant"... she just says "I will die." And that's true, if the Atavachron isn't used to prepare her after arrival to be "natural" in the original time period (the "future", relative to her imprisoned time period).
Because think of it -- a device like the Atavachron becomes a perfect theft machine, if there's no risk to life. You go back in time, steal something valuable, then return to your time period to enjoy the spoils. We don't know how many Atavachrons were around, but there must have been hundreds, in order to deal with the population of an entire planet that appeared to be Earth size. By declaring that returning to the future means "instant" death, "prepared" people don't want to risk dying.
Last edited:
Yes, I agree. Why should time travel affect anyone genetically? The episode suggests that Spock is "reverting" to his ancestors, as McCoy suggested. We don't know how long they were there. It definitely seems more than a few hours! I posit that it's nearly a full day. But who knows... Vulcans are different from humans. There may be some kind of sensitivity that affects Spock. But you know, I think it's more about the psychology of the situation. Spock is half human. They are hit with this new reality that they're stuck in the past. That's HUGE. My interpretation is that Spock is psychologically stressed and his savage Vulcan impulses end up coming to the surface.
Somebody invented the time machine. It's not likely that Zor Khan operated it after Atoz did, so Zor Khan is the likelier inventor. If he invented a machine that specifically and deliberately doesn't allow anybody to ever come back, Atoz' folks might have no option but to gloss over its shortcomings when trying to make the users feel at ease.
Why not? But in Zor Khan's case, the sun going boom would supposedly not apply - he lived before that became an issue, before the time of Atoz, and not in the few minutes after our heroes depart Sarpeidon. Zor Khan would have this obvious rationale for setting up the atavarchon the way it's set up, exactly because there would be a world to come back to, and a desire to come back.
Yet what we see happen to our heroes would seem to put the lie to that all - there's no observed limit on survival. Other than restless natives or Vulcans going bonkers, that is.
The more "instant", the better, because our heroes showed no symptoms of a slow onset even though we did observe them for "a few hours".
This is assuming Atoz was being truthful. As long as his customers never returned, they would not face Zor Khan's instant-death zapper that was part and parcel of the time machine, so they would not need to know the truth about that.
Not that I'd think Zor installed a special device for that. He just made sure that the time machine itself was incompatible with "prepared" people, whose originally time travel -compatible bodies would in a few hours "adapt" due to the injections or whatnot given to them and become incapable of surviving further time travel.
Might work that way, too. But why would Atoz want to discourage further time travel? Few would really wish to return to his own, doomed-to-a-quick-and-fiery-end time and thus clog the evacuation facility.
Yet most might choose to hop from one happy past to another, either straining the machine or then upsetting history so that the machine never gets built. This could justify the ruse all right. The problem there is that Zarabeth was told this lie, too - and Zor Khan would have no reason to lie, as he could just kill Zarabeth with a dagger or a swarm of ferocious moonfrogs if she dared return.
Or would the machine allow for "site-to-site", leaving Zor Khan high and dry, especially if Zarabeth chose to return to the year of the tyrant's birth and practice some immediate postnatal birth control? Nothing of the sort is suggested in the episode, though.
If the atavarchon were in public/commercial hands, and under public/commercial control, with numerous terminals, the odds of a conspiracy really working would be pretty low. Mr Atoz himself might not be a thief by heart, but surely his cousin Mrs 0toLazy8 would be tempted. Or that lowlife Mr DusktillDawn.
Better set up an actual and concrete method of punishment-deterrent, based on submachine guns rather than lies. Although this might not be a reason not to tell the lie, too.
If, OTOH, there was just the one machine, the one Zor Khan's late geniuses built, the threat of misuse would not exist due to centralized control. Any use would by the very definition be authorized and proper. And the operator would not need to tell either white or black lies if he were a tyrant - but benign use might call for softer touch, including propaganda.
Atoz suggested the evacuation had started "long ago". Back in his youth? Several generations earlier? A single time machine as a choke point need not be inconceivable as such.
Timo Saloniemi
^ You're responding to my points but not really addressing them.
Where I feel Sarpeidon failed in this clever "escape to the past" so that people will avoid being vaporized in a terrible destruction of their planet, is that they should have taken liberties with "massaging" their timeline, sending their top scientists back a few decades to work on space faring technology. They'd eventually come up with the capability for space travel in time to evacuate the population by leaving Sarpeidon and traveling to another world. Maybe they'd not have the capability of taking everyone. But whoever would stay behind could go into the past so they could live out their lives. And that way Sarpeidon culture could go on, somewhere else in another solar system.
- I'm talking about physiological reasons for needing to be "prepared." Even if there is some kind of cell structure and brain pattern compatibility issue for long term survival, it should work both ways. Makes no sense to have an "instant death." Operating on what we know, it's hard to be completely certain. Your suggestion of a "death zapper" doesn't seem to fit the story, as the magistrate's response is "the Atavachron prepares our cell structure and our brain pattern to make life natural here. To return to the future would mean instant death." Death, because you've been transformed for living in the past. Not that if you go back you'll be killed because you weren't supposed to return, zapped by some kind of Atavachron death ray.
- Because unprepared people can travel to the past and come back to their original time period, it would make perfect logical sense for someone in the past to return to the future time period from whence they came and not die immediately. They'd have a few hours, just as "future" people have when going into the past... and because the Atavachron exists in that time period, they could be transformed to live in their original time period again. I think Zarabeth could have been saved.
- Zarabeth says "I only know that I can't go back. I will die." That is what she was told, obviously. And it wasn't unique. The magistrate wasn't banished. He very likely went back to a time period as part of the Sarpeidon population exodus to the past due to an impending super nova. But he was prepared and he was also told "instant death" awaited him if he tried to return. "We can never go back." Again... we don't know if this is just a left-over threat from Zor Khan's time, nobody was willing to risk their life to test it out.
Where I feel Sarpeidon failed in this clever "escape to the past" so that people will avoid being vaporized in a terrible destruction of their planet, is that they should have taken liberties with "massaging" their timeline, sending their top scientists back a few decades to work on space faring technology. They'd eventually come up with the capability for space travel in time to evacuate the population by leaving Sarpeidon and traveling to another world. Maybe they'd not have the capability of taking everyone. But whoever would stay behind could go into the past so they could live out their lives. And that way Sarpeidon culture could go on, somewhere else in another solar system.
I never considered that Zor Khan might be responsible for the whole "prepared" thing, but it makes perfect sense. Especially if he originally applied it as a weapon against his enemies but Sarpeidon society still used it out of habit. Probably forgot why it was really invented in the first place.
Similar threads
