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Alex Kurtzman on the Fine Line Between Adding to, and Staying True to, Star Trek's Canon

I would say that Kirk feels like a much different person than TOS Kirk, and much more of a jerk.

He was deskbound for two years and frustrated that someone else was in command of his ship. Yes, he does come across like a total jerk, but at least I can understand his motivations for being said jerk, even if I don’t agree with them.

I would say the TMP changes to the Enterprise are far more drastic and even the refit explanation is not sufficient for me.

As someone who has seen firsthand buildings, offices and other places of former employment that get renovated and look absolutely nothing like they did before, the refit of the Enterprise isn’t all that shocking to me.
 
He was deskbound for two years and frustrated that someone else was in command of his ship. Yes, he does come across like a total jerk, but at least I can understand his motivations for being said jerk, even if I don’t agree with them.
It's not believable, in my opinion, nor does it feel continuous with TOS.
As someone who has seen firsthand buildings, offices and other places of former employment that get renovated and look absolutely nothing like they did before, they refit of the Enterprise isn’t all that shocking to me.
The Discovery changes are no different. It isn't shocking, as you would say :)
 
That much is clear. But, it's why DSC is easier to accept. We've been here before.

I find it much harder to accept the changes made by a prequel show that makes no attempts at being internally consistent with the continuity of the original show it’s supposed to be a prequel of, and a movie set two-and-a-half years after said original show. YMMV.
 
I find it much harder to accept the changes made by a prequel show that makes no attempts at being internally consistent with the continuity of the original show it’s supposed to be a prequel of, and a movie set two-and-a-half years after said original show. YMMV.
I find them equally difficult changes to accept, especially when the characters are not acting the same. So, I process through it the same way. Change is a part of Trek since TMP and TMP is still apart of continuity. So, why would I treat DSC any differently?
 
I find them equally difficult changes to accept, especially when the characters are not acting the same. So, I process through it the same way. Change is a part of Trek since TMP and TMP is still apart of continuity. So, why would I treat DSC any differently?

You can treat it however you want. I choose to treat it differently, for my own reasons.
 
Well no offense, but you’re talking in circles here. Do you want us to keep disagreeing with each other or do you want to end the discussion?
We can keep talking in circles. That's fine by me :)

Or agree to disagree. Either one is fine by me.
 
Following the canon is easy. I don’t get the excuses not to or “stretch” it as they say.
 
Wow, another "DSC breaks canon" thread. Must be Monday.

It's not believable, in my opinion, nor does it feel continuous with TOS.

The Discovery changes are no different. It isn't shocking, as you would say :)

The TMP re-design didn't invalidate the TOS pilot one. The DSC one, being used in stories set during and more the TOS pilot one, does. That's a reason why it's getting flack, IMHO.
 
The TMP re-design didn't invalidate the TOS pilot one. The DSC one, being used in stories set during and more the TOS pilot one, does. That's a reason why it's getting flack, IMHO.
I'm going to try really hard not to sound pedantic but I make no promises. Suffice to say this is my take on what I have seen, especially with TMP vs. TOS vs. DSC.

For starters, I am struggling with how DSC "invalidates" the TOS pilot. One, as established by TMP, it apparently only takes two years to fully refit a starship. DSC takes place ten years prior. Second, DSC has done nothing to change the story that WNMHGB tells, nor the impact upon the characters. And, for me, as much as I love starships and uniforms and tech that stuff the characters matter more to me. If events take place in the 23rd century then that is where they take place and that's OK.

Finally, GR already gave us a convenient out for visual discontinuity. TOS is a dramatic recreation in-universe.

I get it-DSC will catch flak for merely existing and taking on a time period previously established. For me, the most important part is the characters and telling their story. Am I convinced that DSC fits perfectly? Of course not, but neither does TMP or TWOK, in my opinion. But, am I invested in the characters to accept those visual discontinuities? The answer is a firm yes.
 
The TMP re-design didn't invalidate the TOS pilot one. The DSC one, being used in stories set during and more the TOS pilot one, does. That's a reason why it's getting flack, IMHO.

Re-read my argument about how nothing changes so completely in two-and-a-half years. It doesn't. 40 years of living tells me this. If it was just the Enterprise that changed, fine. But they changed everything else too. The best I could rationalize it in the past (before Discovery) was that the TOS and TMP look overlapped with each other for a while. I didn't entirely believe it, but I went along with it anyway. I suspended my disbelief in the literal sense of the phrase.

I submit that most people are okay with the changes TMP made because those changes happened either when they were very young or before they were born. So they take those changes for granted.

Even neverminding that, in TNG, DS9, and ENT, the TOS Enterprise wasn't a ship that was from the same era. It was from another time. Either from 100 years earlier (TNG and DS9) or from 100 years later (ENT). The original Enterprise and Discovery are supposed to be contemporaries of each other. To have the Discovery next to the TOS Enterprise unaltered doesn't work because they don't look like they're from the same time. DSC already established how their depiction of the TOS Era looked, so it was too late to have the Enterprise looking as it used to be.

If Discovery had the TOS aesthetic from the beginning, then I'd be okay with seeing the Enterprise look like it did in TOS because it would fit. Intra-show continuity trumps cross-franchise continuity. The show has to look consistent with itself first and foremost. They chose, from Day One, not to look like TOS, so they're stuck with that decision. At least with DSC. Maybe some other series will do something else. I don't think so, but the precedent is there now.
 
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Okay, then.

I'm going to try really hard not to sound pedantic but I make no promises. Suffice to say this is my take on what I have seen, especially with TMP vs. TOS vs. DSC.

For starters, I am struggling with how DSC "invalidates" the TOS pilot. One, as established by TMP, it apparently only takes two years to fully refit a starship. DSC takes place ten years prior. Second, DSC has done nothing to change the story that WNMHGB tells, nor the impact upon the characters. And, for me, as much as I love starships and uniforms and tech that stuff the characters matter more to me. If events take place in the 23rd century then that is where they take place and that's OK.

Look at it this way; if we strung all the Short Treks, DSC, and "The Cage" together in chronological order, it looks like Starfleet was constantly rebuilding the Enterprise between two designs every few years. I don't blame people for not liking it; I personally really, really wish that they'd left well alone for anything before "The Cage," since DSC Enterprise before that is where canon gets really broken with out much to paper over it.

Finally, GR already gave us a convenient out for visual discontinuity. TOS is a dramatic recreation in-universe.

Yeah, he put that in his novelization of the first movie, the same one he also told us was not canonical. While I think that "Ex Astris Scientia" fan site guy has been turning into another James Dixon over the years, I do agree with him that visuals are a part of canon (where we disagree is on whether it's okay to be angry over a TV show for not checking off every single box).

I get it-DSC will catch flak for merely existing and taking on a time period previously established. For me, the most important part is the characters and telling their story. Am I convinced that DSC fits perfectly? Of course not, but neither does TMP or TWOK, in my opinion. But, am I invested in the characters to accept those visual discontinuities? The answer is a firm yes.

Well, that's a healthier opinion. Wish that there was some happy medium where the "in-universe" canon and continuity elements could be discussed without people overreacting like the shows are some sacred text.

Re-read my argument about how nothing changes so completely in two-and-a-half years. It doesn't. 40 years of living tells me this. If it was just the Enterprise that changed, fine. But they changed everything else too. The best I could rationalize it in the past (before Discovery) was that the TOS and TMP look overlapped with each other for a while. I didn't entirely believe it, but I went along with it anyway. I suspended my disbelief in the literal sense of the phrase.

I submit that most people are okay with the changes TMP made because those changes happened either when they were very young or before they were born. So they take those changes for granted.

I don't see how TMP could "change" stuff we'd never seen before (and the only actual changes where explained in the context of the story). It was mostly additive, not revisionist. (Course, I don't have a problem with overlap; in fact, I welcome it. Heck, I would've loved to have seen DSC ships interacting with TOS ships onscreen, like in "In a Mirror, Darkly" [ENT]).

Even neverminding that, in TNG, DS9, and ENT, the TOS Enterprise wasn't a ship that was from the same era. It was from another time. Either from 100 years earlier (TNG and DS9) or from 100 years later (ENT). The original Enterprise and Discovery are supposed to be contemporaries of each other. To have the Discovery next to the TOS Enterprise unaltered doesn't work because they don't look like they're from the same time. DSC already established how their depiction of the TOS Era looked, so it was too late to have the Enterprise looking as it used to be.

If Discovery had the TOS aesthetic from the beginning, then I'd be okay with seeing the Enterprise look like it did in TOS because it would fit. Intra-show continuity trumps cross-franchise continuity. The show has to look consistent with itself first and foremost. They chose, from Day One, not to look like TOS, so they're stuck with that decision. At least with DSC. Maybe some other series will do something else. I don't think so, but the precedent is there now.

I don't see the problem with having other different-looking ships. I mean, most of them were brand-new designs, not a replacement for stuff we'd already seen. I can picture DSC ships being around with TOS ones, since different designers makes sense in-universe; a single ship constantly changing between two designs, doesn't make much sense in-universe.
 
Look at it this way; if we strung all the Short Treks, DSC, and "The Cage" together in chronological order, it looks like Starfleet was constantly rebuilding the Enterprise between two designs every few years. I don't blame people for not liking it; I personally really, really wish that they'd left well alone for anything before "The Cage," since DSC Enterprise before that is where canon gets really broken with out much to paper over it.
I can see that. I just don't have a problem with Starfleet experimenting with different designs every two years, either for different missions or use of different technologies.

All of this is my personal supposition. People can not like it all they want.
Yeah, he put that in his novelization of the first movie, the same one he also told us was not canonical. While I think that "Ex Astris Scientia" fan site guy has been turning into another James Dixon over the years, I do agree with him that visuals are a part of canon (where we disagree is on whether it's okay to be angry over a TV show for not checking off every single box).
Visuals are a part of canon. For me, they are lower on the list in terms of importance.

And, in my opinion, none of Star Trek should be treated as sacred.
Well, that's a healthier opinion. Wish that there was some happy medium where the "in-universe" canon and continuity elements could be discussed without people overreacting like the shows are some sacred text.
Well, it becomes what emphasis people put on these different elements. And we are going to disagree on what elements are important to feel they change the whole continuity.
 
Look at it this way; if we strung all the Short Treks, DSC, and "The Cage" together in chronological order, it looks like Starfleet was constantly rebuilding the Enterprise between two designs every few years. I don't blame people for not liking it; I personally really, really wish that they'd left well alone for anything before "The Cage," since DSC Enterprise before that is where canon gets really broken with out much to paper over it.
You also have to consider real life reasons. Short Treks most likely don't have the same budget as the actual TV series. So they can't go making new uniforms and redesigning the Enterprise again.
 
I can picture DSC ships being around with TOS ones, since different designers makes sense in-universe

Your imagination stretches far more than mine. The exteriors, I can see to an extent. The interiors, not so much.

a single ship constantly changing between two designs, doesn't make much sense in-universe.

I don't subscribe to the idea of the Enterprise switching back and forth between the DSC and TOS design. Which, I agree with you, is totally ridiculous. In the DSC Forum, I had to go out of my way to not respond to someone who was trying to push really hard that he thought the ship switched back and forth between the two looks. I'm not one of those people who thinks that. I couldn't even respond to that because I thought it was such a stupid idea.

As far as I'm concerned: In DSC, the Enterprise never looked like it did in TOS and never will. And in TOS, the Enterprise never looked like it did in DSC. I treat DSC and TOS as different visual depictions of the same story being told.
 
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As far as I'm concerned: In DSC, the Enterprise never looked like it did in TOS and never will. And in TOS, the Enterprise never looked like it did in DSC. I treat DSC and TOS as different visual depictions of the same story being told.

That’s cool. I however am of the school of thought where if you advertise your show as being a prequel to another show set ten years after it, then you should go out of your way to make your show look and feel the same or very similar to that show. If you want to make your show totally different, then don’t advertise it as a prequel. Set it in its own universe.
 
That’s cool. I however am of the school of thought where if you advertise your show as being a prequel to another show set ten years after it, then you should go out of your way to make your show look and feel the same or very similar to that show. If you want to make your show totally different, then don’t advertise it as a prequel. Set it in its own universe.

Yup, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I'm getting it all out there because I'm intending to move on from the topic in general from here on out. We'll see how successful I am... (Wait a minute. Who the Hell am I kidding? I'll be back talking about it two weeks from now, but wish me luck! :p)
 
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