Airlock Janeway

[kimc]

You must have figured out by now that I am not attracted to Kathryn, which means she gets treated like a person rather than an object or even a woman. Hells, I am so not attracted to her I often think of her as a man just to save time.

Are you saying if you're attracted to someone they become an object and not a person?

So why keep bringing up her sex?

As Trek's only "mainstream" female captain her gender is bound to come up. For me, I've recently noticed how a woman's anger is reacted to differently than a man's. As a part-Italian with temper to match (think Sophia Loren on a bad hair day) I can't help but take a personal interest in the phenomenon.

When Janeway acts out of anger she's bitchy, bi-polar, etc. With Kirk and Picard they're being agressive, forthright, etc.

Caveat: These are just my impressions.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Again. Archer did do it.

He claimed he was bluffing, but he was afraid that he could see a point when given a similar situation that he wouldn't be bluffing. Which explains the back end of the Zindi arc when he kept setting aside his morality reason and ethics because his entire species was up against the wall. So half a season later he needs a warp coil, so he constructs a boarding party and steals it naive bambilike explorers, killing crew and losing some of his own in the process, a year later in the next season he's still having night mares about the bastard decisions he had to follow through on to get the job done.

Sisko did it too.

In the Pale Moonlight anyone?

Kirk on Genisis kicking Doc brown in the face "WHY WON'T You DIE!!????!!" Not the same thing, but that "I'll kill you later, opps,. I lied" is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you saying if you're attracted to someone they become an object and not a person?

Yes. Objectification is a deceitful uncompromising part of our lives that changes the rules of how fairly we treat both men and women. Given a spread of time, you can come to hate the woman you used to love, but both hate and love are dramatically transformative in how you would treat this same woman if she was just a person you had no feelings for at all. Therefore you are treating her as something unreal who is not who she really is because of the creation of a personality myth built up because they must be wonderful since you love them, or they must be demons since you hate them, when honestly they are possibly neither. Lies we tell ourselves to explain our decisions? But if we are purposely ignoring what we love about those we hate and ignoring what we hate about those we love, how does this explain that we are not sane people disinterested with the complete package? Maybe I'm talking about misrepresentation more so than objectification, but no one is who they seem to be and we don't want any one to be what they really are, so it's not like people are having relationships with people at all but in reality artificial constructs are being romanced by delusional dreamers which does sound to me like objectification on more than one front.

My favourite movie is the Princess Bride.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

So why keep bringing up her sex?

Perhaps because any woman with a hint of seniority is seen as a sex - starved, menopausal ballbreaker who uses her sexuality to get to where she is?

As I have previously stated, the business with Lessing was justified. He was the only link to the Equinox and my missing crewman. (it was unknown to me at this point that they had managed the kidnap of two members of my crew)

For all I knew the Equinox would continue to kill innocent lifeforms as a source of fuel, and as the only other Starfleet Officer, with a rank sufficient to act upon the murder of innocent beings, I did what I could to stop this from happening. Not to mention save my kidnapped crewman.

 

[JB2005]

Perhaps because any woman with a hint of seniority is seen as a sex - starved, menopausal ballbreaker who uses her sexuality to get to where she is?

Now I've heard many things said about Maggie...but come on, say it with a straight face I dare you :P

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're mistaking justified with necessary.

So what if you had to fee Noah to the space beasties. Considering he got out of that room alive and the XO was on his side, there was absolutely still no reason to open up to you with the truth considering how weak your position was that you were seeding a mutiny right in front of him.

I do think that Chuckles is a man of conviction enough to put you in the brig if you do become insane enough more than usual. hell, minutes later you agree to FEED ransom to the space beasties too. You were becoming a slave to their appetites. how fortunate that he sacrificed himself during the course of the adventure and you didn't have to hold tru to you promise to deliver Rudy to his victims?

Just because doing a bad thing will make good things happen, it doesn't make those bad things good. Hell, that's the slightest paraphrasing on the usual question asked in these instances: Do the ends Justify the means?l

And morally elastically you believe that ends always justify the means, or that the ends sometimes justify the means, or just that one time, until the next time that the ends justify the means.

It's called a code of behaviour not a suggestion of behaviour.

Watched much 24?

Torture bad, torture bad, torture bad... Tick tock, tick tock... Bugger it.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

KimC, the 'angry woman' thing shouldn't even come into it. For a 24th century human the point would be moot.

You say that it wasn't like he was waterboarded or anything..

When you're tied to a chair and left alone in a room with something that wants to kill you and WILL kill you the second it can, to me that's torture.

Some of you are reacting like I'm one of those Voyager Haters out there or something. I'm not. I like Voyager and I like Janeway. I've defended her here before many times (like for her actions in Endgame).

But in this case she royally screwed up.


But Sisko for example has taken some pretty evil actions in the past and yes I would like to have seen him taken to task for them as well. Sex doesn't play into it, not for me.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

The Equinox crew chewed up and spat out everything that the Starfleet code stands for, if I went overboard in the quest to haul these individuals into custody then so be it. Even I make mistakes sometimes.

If you encountered something you were deeply passionate about being trampled over by people who should know better, I'm damned if you wouldn't also take extreme measures to stop it from happening.

If Starfleet views my actions as wrong, I am more than willing to pay the price when we return home.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

The Equinox crew chewed up and spat out everything that the Starfleet code stands for, if I went overboard in the quest to haul these individuals into custody then so be it. Even I make mistakes sometimes.

If you encountered something you were deeply passionate about being trampled over by people who should know better, I'm damned if you wouldn't also take extreme measures to stop it from happening.

If Starfleet views my actions as wrong, I am more than willing to pay the price when we return home.

The Equinox crew did chew up and spit out everything Starfleet stands for.

So then...Janeway does the same thing?

I'm just saying her actions should have had consequences, that's all.

Like I said, I'm willing to defend many of Janeway's actions throughout the series. Even some of those that most people here seem to be down on.

This one though, along with her "checking out" during Night are the two that I can't find any good reasons for.

To me there just isn't any way around it.

 

[JB2005]

The Equinox crew chewed up and spat out everything that the Starfleet code stands for, if I went overboard in the quest to haul these individuals into custody then so be it. Even I make mistakes sometimes.

If you encountered something you were deeply passionate about being trampled over by people who should know better, I'm damned if you wouldn't also take extreme measures to stop it from happening.

If Starfleet views my actions as wrong, I am more than willing to pay the price when we return home.

Good enjoy the stockades.

We have rule of law not vigilantism. if someone breaks the law that doesn't give you carte blanche to go after them and throw the rule-book out the window.

 

[TheGodBen]

There's nothing more frightening to modern man than an angry woman.

Not true, the other night I had a dream that Michael Jackson was in my room, I can't think of anything more scary in the world!

As for Equinox, I've not seen it in many years and I'm only a week away from watching it so I probably shouldn't read this thread in case it affects my judgement on the episode, but I remember reading something RDM said on the subject during that famous interview he gave when he quit Voyager. Some of you may find it interesting:

We sat down and approached 'Equinox II' and tried to find what the show was about. What was the point of meeting this ship and this crew and this captain, and what did it mean? We finally landed on this idea that the two captains were going to go in opposite directions. Janeway was going to really feel the same kind of pressures and stresses that Ransom [John Savage] felt, and watch how it could turn a good, by-the-book Starfleet captain into what he had become. At the same time, his interaction with the Doctor [Robert Picardo] and Seven of Nine would rekindle his humanity. It was this nice, double track approach, but it just got lost in the translation. It has no coherence. You're not sure what's really going on. You've got some potentially good scenes. The scenes between Janeway and Chakotay had some real fire to them, and you kind of felt like she is going off the deep end, a bit. Then she relieves him of duty, and there is this crisis of command between the two of them. But at the end of the episode, it's just a shrug and a smile and off to the next.

...

It has to be about something at some level. The things that Janeway does in 'Equinox' don't work, because it's not about anything. She's not really grappling with her inner demons. She's not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she's made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She's having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn't signify anything.

...

'Two captains on different courses' at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience? I don't know how it's affected her. Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore.'

 

[Guy Gardener]

That was not how the episode ended. When she and Chakotay were standing on the bridge she acknowledged that she had let her anger get the best of her.

JANEWAY: How's the crew?
CHAKOTAY: A lot of frayed nerves. Neelix is organizing a potluck to help boost morale.
JANEWAY: Will I see you there?
CHAKOTAY: I'm replicating the salad.
JANEWAY: I'll bring the croutons. Chakotay. You know, you may have had good reason to stage a little mutiny of your own.
CHAKOTAY: The thought had occurred to me, but that would have been crossing the line.
JANEWAY: Will you look at that. All these years, all these battles, this thing's never fallen down before.
CHAKOTAY: Let's put it back up where it belongs.

That's either the worst apology I've seen, or no apology at all. What she said there then was "Meh, you could have shived me." I believe Jenny Sparks said it best. "Ford is going to hell for pardoning Nixon." And that's where Chuckles is going to be roasting in the afterlife for this one too.

is the suggestion above that because the dedication plate fell off, that the ship wasn't Voyager during the last part of this adventure, that everything bad that did happen, dissociatively happened to some other ship? Did we see on camera when it exactly it did fall off?

 

[Anwar]

The symbolism was that the one and only time the dedication plaque fell down was when it was confronted with people who truly did betray everything the Federation and its' ideals stood for. Utter betrayal.

 

[Guy Gardener]

People like Janeway?

Her internal struggle not to become Ransom shook the ship to its foundations?

 

[Anwar]

They took Ransom onto their vessel, and in return he showed he betrayed all they believed in and left them to a bunch of space eels out to kill them. His presence shook the plate off.

 

[Square]

There's nothing more frightening to modern man than an angry woman.

Not true, the other night I had a dream that Michael Jackson was in my room, I can't think of anything more scary in the world!

As for Equinox, I've not seen it in many years and I'm only a week away from watching it so I probably shouldn't read this thread in case it affects my judgement on the episode, but I remember reading something RDM said on the subject during that famous interview he gave when he quit Voyager. Some of you may find it interesting:

We sat down and approached 'Equinox II' and tried to find what the show was about. What was the point of meeting this ship and this crew and this captain, and what did it mean? We finally landed on this idea that the two captains were going to go in opposite directions. Janeway was going to really feel the same kind of pressures and stresses that Ransom [John Savage] felt, and watch how it could turn a good, by-the-book Starfleet captain into what he had become. At the same time, his interaction with the Doctor [Robert Picardo] and Seven of Nine would rekindle his humanity. It was this nice, double track approach, but it just got lost in the translation. It has no coherence. You're not sure what's really going on. You've got some potentially good scenes. The scenes between Janeway and Chakotay had some real fire to them, and you kind of felt like she is going off the deep end, a bit. Then she relieves him of duty, and there is this crisis of command between the two of them. But at the end of the episode, it's just a shrug and a smile and off to the next.

...

It has to be about something at some level. The things that Janeway does in 'Equinox' don't work, because it's not about anything. She's not really grappling with her inner demons. She's not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she's made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She's having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn't signify anything.

...

'Two captains on different courses' at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience? I don't know how it's affected her. Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore.'

I think Janeway would've gained a few more points with fans if we had seen her apologize.

Overall, if Janeway had displayed more vulnerability, or admitted she felt like she was in over her head, she would have been more sympathetic. I think they tried to paste her personality onto a "perfect" Starfleet ideal, and it didn't work.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She didn't need to apologise, didn't have to, she was in charge, but she's bloody lucky that that's the crew she had if that's how she decided to treat them.

The last conversation she had with Chakotay, our kathy did admit that she might have possibly done something wrong, which is all I've ever been really after, that she takes responsibility for her actions. And if she does that, claims her atrocities proudly, then she can quite rightly respond to criticism about her tour of duty with charming retorts like: "Go shutta uppa your face." or "So, and y'mother!"

 

[kimc]

But if we are purposely ignoring what we love about those we hate and ignoring what we hate about those we love, how does this explain that we are not sane people disinterested with the complete package?

I've just come from seeing the movie Cheri. It sounds like you would enjoy reading Colette. You hate Janeway so you must love Janeway but aren't love and hate merely illusions...

... or something like that.

 

[kimc]

You say that it wasn't like he was waterboarded or anything..

When you're tied to a chair and left alone in a room with something that wants to kill you and WILL kill you the second it can, to me that's torture.

Lessing had no remorse about killing those aliens or about leaving another Starfleet crew to suffer at their hands. Quite frankly, I'd be pissed at him too.

I see the scene as a game of "good cop, bad cop" that got out of hand due to Janeway's anger. (Yes, anger does play into it.) She admitted to Chakotay in the final scene that she had been out of line.

Quite frankly Lessing got better than he deserved when Chakotay set him free. I know that sounds harsh but what that crew did was even harsher.

 

[Thestral]

Perhaps because any woman with a hint of seniority is seen as a sex - starved, menopausal ballbreaker who uses her sexuality to get to where she is?

That's total bollocks. Within Star Trek alone, fans don't seem to have a problem with Kira Nerys (definite authority), Beverly Crusher, Tasha Yar, Jadzia Dax, Guinan, or Winn Adami in positions of authority. And those are just some of the regular or semi-regular characters. Toss in Elizabeth Shelby, Alynna Nechayev's later appearances, Kai Opaka, K'Ehleyr and Rachel Garrett as some particularly notable guest stars. Certainly these aren't seen as "sex-starved, menopausal ballbreakers."

For all I knew the Equinox would continue to kill innocent lifeforms as a source of fuel, and as the only other Starfleet Officer, with a rank sufficient to act upon the murder of innocent beings, I did what I could to stop this from happening. Not to mention save my kidnapped crewman.

What does it even mean that Janeway has a "rank sufficient to act upon the murder of innocent beings" - since when do Starflett officers need a particular rank for this?