AD versus Common Era

[DimesDan]

Personally, if we start a new calender, I'm inclined to mark it from the start of Gandhi's nonviolent independence movement, or the date of the legalization of trade unions and strikes, or the abolition of slavery in the British Empire, or from the date of the "I Have A Dream" Speech, or the passage of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, or the publication of Nunca Más, or.... Something that marks a level of social advancement rather than mere technological advancement.

(Probably the UDHR would be the best, since it's the most globally inclusive event.)

* * *

... do hereby proclaim Stardate 57613 as Federation Day. I urge all Federates to celebrate the anniversary of the establishment of the United Federation of Planets

With a stardate system and hundreds of planets revolving around various stars, how exactly do you "celebrate the anniversary" of a date?

Well, we already know that a stardate year seems to correspond to the same length of time as an Earth year, just divided up in units of one thousand instead of months and weeks and days -- stardate year 50xxx corresponded with Gregorian year 2373 (DS9 Season 5, VOY season 3, Star Trek: First Contact). Whether or not the start and end of a stardate year matches up with the start and end of a Gregorian or other Earth calender year is unknown, but it seems pretty clear that stardate years equate to Earth years.

Although the first part is interesting. The second part not so, like Starfleet isn't the US Navy (or anyother navel force) in space,

Actually, the writers have always said that Starfleet is based in part upon the United States Navy.

the UFP or a United Earth shouldn't be the US Federal Government (Or any other governing body except maybe the UN) in space.

Well, it cannot and should not be the U.N. in space, because the U.N. is not a governing body or government or state of any sort. It is an intergovernmental organization whose function it is to provide a platform for the peaceful resolution of conflicts, launching of joint ventures, and the negotiation and establishment of international law between sovereign states; it has no sovereignty in its own right the way the Federation does.

And the Federation is heavily influenced by how the American and British governmental systems work (or, rather, by how they're supposed to work in theory). The Federation government seen in Articles of the Federation is essentially a combination U.S./Westminster system. The Seventh Guarantee of the Federation Constitution from "The Drumhead" is clearly based upon the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The elected Federation President is established as the commander-in-chief in DS9's "Paradise Lost." Etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Federation is literally America in space. Obviously it's a great deal more culturally diverse than the United States, and less centralized. A Federation of that many worlds would inherently incorporate legal concepts and traditions from more than just one planet. But that doesn't mean that one potentially useful example -- a sovereign state which uses a calender system dating back to its own creation within recent history -- should be ignored for how the Federation might function. It may well be very useful for the Federation to use, alongside indigenous calenders, an official Federation calender that counts up from the year of the Federation's establishment.

I stand corrected.

 

[Christopher]

I feel like any new dating system has to start with a real paradigm shift event. Outer space, unfortunately, still plays a very limited role in human civilization. But the atomic bomb changed everything--and we still feel its effect today. Unleashing the power of the atom will almost certainly prove more decisive than the birth of Christ. (Hopefully in a good way.)

Well, why should today's view of things dictate the decisions that are made for centuries to come? Once the space age really gets underway, which it should within our lifetimes once we get on with asteroid mining and it becomes self-sustaining, it will undoubtedly begin a new era, a massive paradigm shift in human existence. The spacegoing humanity of the future will surely see Sputnik and Apollo 11 as the formative events of their age, just as we Americans think of Christopher Columbus and the Mayflower.

And no, there's no way we won't become a spacefaring society, not if we wish to remain a technological civilization. The planet is running out of helium and various precious metals which play essential roles in modern technology (for instance, liquid helium is needed for cooling supercomputers, and I think for various high-tech manufacturing processes). The only way we'll be able to sustain our current level of technology once those resources run dry on Earth is by mining them from the Moon, the asteroids, and other Solar System bodies. Within a few decades, it will no longer be possible for outer space not to play a major role in human civilization.

 

[Glitch]

And no, there's no way we won't become a spacefaring society, not if we wish to remain a technological civilization.

Within a few decades, it will no longer be possible for outer space not to play a major role in human civilization.

I think you're right. Unfortunately, there's no rule that states it has to be our present civilization that makes the leap into outer space. I'm a pessimist, though.

But I digress. I'll stick by my choice for 1945, because all in all it seems like a decent year to begin a new calendar--for a number of reasons. You have the yin of the atomic bomb to the yang of the establishment of the United Nations. It was certainly a more landmark year worldwide than whatever was going on 2,011 years ago (or so).

 

[Christopher]

Unfortunately, there's no rule that states it has to be our present civilization that makes the leap into outer space.

There's a lot of work being done right now on the privatization of spaceflight. We should have space mining underway within a decade or two.

I'll stick by my choice for 1945, because all in all it seems like a decent year to begin a new calendar--for a number of reasons. You have the yin of the atomic bomb to the yang of the establishment of the United Nations. It was certainly a more landmark year worldwide than whatever was going on 2,011 years ago (or so).

I stand by what I said before: A calendar is a form of communication, and the most important thing in communication is clarity. Artificial forms of communication that require everyone to unlearn what they're used to and learn something new have a way of not catching on -- consider Esperanto, the Dvorak keyboard, etc. One exception to that pattern is the metric system, but even its acceptance is less than universal, particularly in America. And while the metric system caught on pretty well, its contemporary creation, the French Revolutionary Calendar, didn't have much of a shelf life.

There are tons of things in language, symbolism, and other cultural conventions whose origins are strange, obscure, or irrelevant to our present-day lives -- but that doesn't matter. What matters is that they're widely accepted and understood and thus make useful symbols for communicating information. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

And while the metric system caught on pretty well, its contemporary creation, the French Revolutionary Calendar, didn't have much of a shelf life.

Do you mean that people don't know that today is Décadi, 20 Floréal 219?

 

[Greg Cox]

I say we wait until the apes take over and let them start their own calendar . . . .

 

[iguana_tonante]

Today is Banany 9, 1967 BRA (Before Rise of the Apes). A Screechday, I believe.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Personally, I don't believe we've reached a pivotal moment in human history which could give rise to a new calendar, though the Universal Declaration of Human Rights could certainly be a contender.

My vote would be to start a new calendar, should one actually be needed, when Earth becomes united under one governmental body. Any new calendar should exist alongside current ones. If you look at Wikipedia's Calendar page, there are currently 45 different calendars being used around the world, plus an additional 21 that are no longer in use and 8 proposed calendars, not including the Darian calendar for Martian timekeeping.

 

[sojourner]

The idea of basing a calendar on the creation of a weapon seems very unpleasant to me. Wouldn't it be better to start it on October 4, 1957, or July 20, 1969?

Don't think of it as the creation of a weapon. Think of it as the year we split the atom.

 

[Greg Cox]

Today is Banany 9, 1967 BRA (Before Rise of the Apes). A Screechday, I believe.

Okay, but do we have to use the calender laid down by the Lawgiver? That smacks of religiosity to me.

Maybe we should just date things from the day the stinking humans blow themselves up?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Impossible. Knowledge of what's inside the Forbidden Zone must be kept a secret to the simian population.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Start with the year 2000 CE and reset it to 0000 NEC (New Earth Calendar)?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But in a year zero, you'd have Panic!

 

[Skellington]

^ Not if year zero has already been when the calendar is established. Year two might be a problem for machines that use bonary, though.

 

[Captain Robert April]

On the other hand, if there is a major inconsistency or a overt effort on the creative teams part to introduce deliberate large systemic changes, then the likelihood of a completely new separate (non-branch) universe, separate from the original prime universe, increases.

I knew there was a reason I liked you.

 

[Captain Robert April]

If we go with the idea that certain things are meant to be in both realities, it could be a case that the Star Trek XI stardate system is eventually adopted in the original at some point prior to 2387.

Or it could merely be a case that the computer aboard the Jellyfish made a conversion for nuSpock through the Universal Translator. Someone from the original reality might have heard "Stardate 64xxx.x " instead, IMO...

Simplest explanation is that it's the final piece of conclusive proof that the whole thing is an alternate timeline, start to finish, and no part of the story takes place in the established continuity.

Nah.

Old Spock came from the original or prime continuity. That's the simplest explanation.

No, because then it becomes incumbent to explain all the stuff that doesn't fit, especially why a Spock from, supposedly, a TNG time frame is referring to events by stardates that don't fit the established system (along with why he doesn't do the obvious stuff that the Spock we know would do, like begin immediate preparations for a time warp so that he can go back to a point to prevent Nero from going back in time and screwing things up).

Eventually, all the "minor" inconsistencies add up to one major disconnect, at which point it's just easier, regardless of the writer's intent, to chuck the whole mess into its own timeline, and not worry about having to match up a goddamned thing.

Just waving it off with "they changed the stardate system" with nothing to back it up is nothing but plain old laziness. Frankly, with all the things that have to be similarly waved off, it's a wonder the weather patterns haven't been effected.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Simplest explanation is that it's the final piece of conclusive proof that the whole thing is an alternate timeline, start to finish, and no part of the story takes place in the established continuity.

Nah.

Old Spock came from the original or prime continuity. That's the simplest explanation.

No,

Yes. It's as simple as that.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Did reading comprehension suddenly drop in the past few days?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I was wondering the same thing. Go fig...

 

[Captain Robert April]

Your approach doesn't explain a fucking thing. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'LALALALALALALALALALALALALA!! CAN'T HEAR YOU!!" while Spock becomes a moron, the Enterprise morphs into battlestar, while JJ and his merry band of miscreants give us a bunch of malformed technobabble about how nothing's been changed, unless you want everything changed, in which case it has, or something in between, all because of some article in "Scientific American" that Orci kind of scanned a few years back that kind of reminded him of the episode "Parallels", and anyway they're the writers, we're the audience, they outrank us!

Meanwhile, the Emperor continues his stroll down the street bloody starkers...