Actual Size of Ships in Star Trek

[Robert Comsol]

Oh but we do, in "The Tholian Web." Replacing those shelves with another drawers unit would provide storage for two person occupancy.

Thanks for refreshing my memory! But now that you mentioned the idea of the diplomatic cabin with a high possibility or probability of an adjacent bathroom (for Elaan to hide in) I do think Uhura’s cabin is, indeed, special and rather unique.

This second shelf compartment left of the drawer / mirror section looks rather empty as if Uhura had just recently moved in there to put a few of her items there - previously on the shelves of a standard cabin. Since her bathroom would probably have a toilet, there’s no need to have one inside Uhura’s rotating closet (which I still think would work / be applicable for most standard cabin wardrobe cylinders), but I’m certain that storage space came in handy, when all the gifts for and/or the luggage of Elaan of Troyius had to be stashed somewhere.

Given the obvious special nature of her cabin, I don’t think we can draw conclusions that apply for all the other and/or standard ones.

Which might raise a question on how to accommodate 100+ passengers in "Journey to Babel." Easy: You leave your exploratory specialists at the nearest Starbase.

That’s a good explanation. Or the crew moved temporarily into rooms with bunk beds, designed for colonist evacuation or detention of prisoners. I’d like to believe that the (unseen) back part of the “crew lounge” in “Day of the Dove” (see Deck 6 draft in post # 93) did contain an adjacent room with bunk beds to accommodate the 40 Klingon survivors.

So in fact it is the Briefing Room doors that some stagehand has left open, not the green middle door as I thought. There were quite a few of these GNDN doors on the corridor set, no doubt added to break up the expanse of grey. However, given that most are blocked by the presence of existing rooms, they come off as little more than very shallow cupboards! Incidentally, there is room for a thin cupboard and Kirk's TCM closet there.

While it is the set of the Briefing Room, I’d like to think that on several decks where we don’t see what’s behind doors it is also a crew accommodation room – which could help to rationalize the open door you spotted. Let’s imagine it opens to a narrow corridor for, let’s say 4 single cabins. As long as there is still one crew member in his cabin, the door stays open, so everybody will know who gets his behind kicked for being late to his or her work shift.

Bob

 

[Robert Comsol]

Having the top-echelon officers stay in the top cabins does make a lot of sense, as you suggest. However, they were able to accommodate the colonists from This Side Of Paradise which totalled over 500 people so there must be some redundancy on board.

Since we never saw how the colonists were housed, I trust they were just provided with collapsible beds in the cargo holds.

You could use the gym, the ship’s theater, the holodeck room, the rec rooms, lounges and other public areas to do that. The upper level of the hangar deck (i.e flight deck) is a possibility, too, but I’d rather think the colonists would have been accommodated with easy access to toilets and food synthesizers.

[Personally, I'd favor an interpretation where the top officers normally reside in the superstructure, that is, on Decks 2 and 3, with a single dedicated Guest Suite being kept available on Deck 2 as per "The Enterprise Incident" (and even that perhaps because Kirk humbly leaves his special Ready Room or Executive Office unused). When dozens of diplomats with their retinues come aboard, junior officers are packed with the ratings and senior officers move to junior quarters, so that even Kirk is on Deck 5 for the duration of the mission.

I believe we got the decisive information from “The Ultimate Computer”:

KIRK: Have you located the malfunction, Doctor?
DAYSTROM: As I suspected, it is not a malfunction. M-5 was merely shutting down power to areas of the ship that do not require it.
Decks 4 and 6 are living quarters, are they not?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct.
DAYSTROM: And currently unoccupied.

The officer cabins of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty are still in use (i.e. occupied) and therefore neither on Deck 4 or 6. On Deck 3 there’s not sufficient space to rationalize any seen corridor leading to their quarters, so I’d dare to say that it is a logical conclusion, that the officer cabins are – indeed – on Deck 5.

Bob

P.S. Make that officer cabins & command crew. Ensign Chekov mans the navigator seat, so his cabin is neither on Deck 4 or 6...

 

[Mytran]

Going by Matt Jefferies' cutaway, Deck 5 is the widest part of the saucer and so would contain a wide variety of facilities including Sickbay, Engineering etc as well as command crew quarters. I would not be surprised if the script writers had this sketch in mind when they assigned "crew quarters" to Decks 4 and 6.

Of course, the following year in Day of the Dove the ship's main Life Support Couplings were identified on Deck 6 as well, but that's another story...

Bob, I must admit I'm not exactly swayed by your efforts to put a flushing toilet within a couple of feet of everyone's bed. While I agree that it could fit as described, I know from years of personal experience that I would not like to sleep in the same room as my lavatory after certain midnight ablutions...

Is sharing a communal toilet area (with individual cubicles) really so bad?

 

[Timo]

The officer cabins of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty are still in use (i.e. occupied) and therefore neither on Deck 4 or 6.

Umm, it should be recognized that they are not. Our heroes are on the bridge or otherwise at their stations, and supposedly will stay so throughout the exercise!

On Deck 3 there’s not sufficient space to rationalize any seen corridor leading to their quarters

Didn't you just show us a pretty convincing layout with two set sections forming an hourglass shape?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

Going by Matt Jefferies' cutaway, Deck 5 is the widest part of the saucer and so would contain a wide variety of facilities including Sickbay, Engineering etc as well as command crew quarters. I would not be surprised if the script writers had this sketch in mind when they assigned "crew quarters" to Decks 4 and 6.

But already in "The City on the Edge of Forever" the saucer hull layout of 11 decks was hinted, IMHO, and in accordance with the (text) guidelines published in "The Making of Star Trek", which would be somewhat incompatible with Matt Jefferies' cutaway:

"In a strange, wild frenzy, he has fled the ship's Bridge. All connecting decks have been placed on alert. ...
KIRK: Continue alert, decks 4 through 11".

(It would appear that during red alert the connection between the saucer and engineering hull is blocked)

Bob, I must admit I'm not exactly swayed by your efforts to put a flushing toilet within a couple of feet of everyone's bed. While I agree that it could fit as described, I know from years of personal experience that I would not like to sleep in the same room as my lavatory after certain midnight ablutions... Is sharing a communal toilet area (with individual cubicles) really so bad?

You might say I’m applying to much 19th Century thinking here (pots below beds), but I’d dare to say that you are applying to much 20th Century thinking (noisy toilets). Certainly, by the 23rd Century the noise issue has been resolved and assuming that the cabin is used exclusively by an individual, there’s no need for extra privacy or shielding inside the cabin.

There’s this scene I can’t get out of my mind: Kirk is leaving his cabin in the middle of the night and is spotted by the nighttime watch: “Ain’t that right captain, when you gotta go you’ve got to go.”

I’d like to think that McCoy was right when he said “rank hath its privileges”, and having an individual toilet inside your cabin would be such a privilege, IMHO.

The officer cabins of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty are still in use (i.e. occupied) and therefore neither on Deck 4 or 6.

Umm, it should be recognized that they are not. Our heroes are on the bridge or otherwise at their stations, and supposedly will stay so throughout the exercise!

But they did not. After Wesley had insulted Kirk by calling him Captain Dunsel, Kirk is taking a break with McCoy in his cabin and enjoying some privacy from M-5. Apparently Deck 5 was kept operational during the entire exercise.

On Deck 3 there’s not sufficient space to rationalize any seen corridor leading to their quarters

Didn't you just show us a pretty convincing layout with two set sections forming an hourglass shape?

I don’t think I understood what you are referring to, but my layouts for Deck 3 and 4 illustrate, that there is no space on Deck 3 to accommodate your typical circular corridor segment.

Bob

 

[Mytran]

Timo, you weren't thinking of my Mk-1 deckplans were you? Decks 2 and 3 have a vaguely hourglass look to them and have turned up once or twice on these boards before.

I should hasten to add that I now consider these 15-year old plans of mine somewhat apocryphal - the corridors can fit in this way but that does not mean they should.

 

[BK613]

Oh but we do, in "The Tholian Web." Replacing those shelves with another drawers unit would provide storage for two person occupancy.

Thanks for refreshing my memory! But now that you mentioned the idea of the diplomatic cabin with a high possibility or probability of an adjacent bathroom (for Elaan to hide in) I do think Uhura’s cabin is, indeed, special and rather unique (emphasis added).

I disagree. Kirk saying that there are "none better" would apply to a half dozen equally appointed rooms just as accurately as it would to one unique one.

Since her bathroom would probably have a toilet, there’s no need to have one inside Uhura’s rotating closet (which I still think would work / be applicable for most standard cabin wardrobe cylinders),

Bob, I must admit I'm not exactly swayed by your efforts to put a flushing toilet within a couple of feet of everyone's bed. While I agree that it could fit as described, I know from years of personal experience that I would not like to sleep in the same room as my lavatory after certain midnight ablutions...

Is sharing a communal toilet area (with individual cubicles) really so bad?

I'm with Mytran on this. In addition to his list of objections (my wife swears I could peel paint ) I would amend that a toilet adds even more complexity to a already functional-compromised piece of equipment. Plus failure could mean not only a mess on the deck but also the temporary loss of one's entire wardrobe.

 

[Mytran]

But already in "The City on the Edge of Forever" the saucer hull layout of 11 decks was hinted, IMHO, and in accordance with the (text) guidelines published in "The Making of Star Trek", which would be somewhat incompatible with Matt Jefferies' cutaway:

"In a strange, wild frenzy, he has fled the ship's Bridge. All connecting decks have been placed on alert. ...
KIRK: Continue alert, decks 4 through 11".

(It would appear that during red alert the connection between the saucer and engineering hull is blocked)

True, but the alert Kirk gives could equally apply if we use Aridas' cutaway and description (it's a stretch, but he does give us 11 decks) so MJ's cutaway need not be totally discarded.

<EEK!> I just realised that Aridas' FRS site went away a year ago! Basically, he interprets the outer and inner ring on the saucer base as separate areas, ergo separate decks.

There’s this scene I can’t get out of my mind: Kirk is leaving his cabin in the middle of the night and is spotted by the nighttime watch: “Ain’t that right captain, when you gotta go you’ve got to go.”

This is the same Kirk that wandered freely around the ship in TCM; sweaty, shirtless and in his finest purple slippers. It presents a picture of a Captain (and a crew) who are quite at ease with the more mundane aspects of day to day life.

Is sharing a communal toilet area (with individual cubicles) really so bad?

I'm with Mytran on this. In addition to his list of objections (my wife swears I could peel paint ) I would amend that a toilet adds even more complexity to a already functional-compromised piece of equipment. Plus failure could mean not only a mess on the deck but also the temporary loss of one's entire wardrobe.

Now there's a scene that would be worth seeing!

 

[Robert Comsol]

This is the same Kirk that wandered freely around the ship in TCM; sweaty, shirtless and in his finest purple slippers. It presents a picture of a Captain (and a crew) who are quite at ease with the more mundane aspects of day to day life.

Like the couple in summer shorts passing Pike on the way to his cabin in "The Cage" or some crew members in the background of the "briefing" Lounge in WNMHGB, I agree.

But I think that coming from a workout in the gym, a medical screening or the (communal) showers is still somewhat different than wandering the ship's corridors at nighttime in search of a toilet.

I'm with Mytran on this. In addition to his list of objections (my wife swears I could peel paint ) I would amend that a toilet adds even more complexity to a already functional-compromised piece of equipment. Plus failure could mean not only a mess on the deck but also the temporary loss of one's entire wardrobe.

That's entirely conjectural, 20th Century thinking (I'd hope that by the 23rd Century male crew members have come to understand the benefits of always sitting on the toilet seat) and at the expense of the private cabin toilet idea.

Alright, how about a different and straightforward approach, then?

I didn't suggest that Uhura's cabin was the only one of her kind (guests will probably always have some luggage to stash away), I just said her cabin is probably not the common one you'd usually encounter aboard the ship and here is why:

In "The Conscience of the King" Kirk and Spock hear a phaser overload built-up in Kirk's cabin (okay, usually high-pitched sounds can be localized, while low frequencies below 80 Hz cannot, hence a certain flexibility where to place a home theater subwoofer).

In search of the phaser Spock goes to Kirk’s wardrobe cylinder and takes out things in search of the phaser, but he is only going through 1 (of 3 theoretically possible 120° segments) of the cylinder, the inevitable conclusion therefore is, that the phaser couldn’t be in the other two thirds!

This cannot be the same wardrobe cylinder we’ve seen in Uhura’s cabin - where hers has an extra 120° segment with shelf space there must be something else in Kirk’s wardrobe cylinder that makes hiding a phaser in there impossible.

And the only thing I can think of is some kind of (flush) toilet, unless someone suggests there is a disintegrator booth that instantly vaporizes anything you put in there (which again is not likely because Kirk uses a waste disposal chute in the corridor instead).

Bob

P.S. Regarding the last 120° segment, I'd speculate it either contains an emergency oxygen tank (to use the cabin as shelter in case of an emergency) or an EVA space suit (where the wardrobe needs some special operating to access it).

This idea came up considering that they all had personalized EVA space suits with name tags in "The Tholian Web". If EVA space suits are already personalized, I couldn't think of a better way to store them.

 

[Mytran]

But I think that coming from a workout in the gym, a medical screening or the (communal) showers is still somewhat different than wandering the ship's corridors at nighttime in search of a toilet.

Different goal of course, but other than that it is still a basic mundane human need, and if everyone is doing the same thing then it wouldn't even be worthy of comment by the aforementioned security guard.
Maybe you (Bob) would prefer others not know when you've got to go, but is this a case of "20th century thinking" on your part, maybe?

I'm with Mytran on this. In addition to his list of objections (my wife swears I could peel paint ) I would amend that a toilet adds even more complexity to a already functional-compromised piece of equipment. Plus failure could mean not only a mess on the deck but also the temporary loss of one's entire wardrobe.

That's entirely conjectural, 20th Century thinking (I'd hope that by the 23rd Century male crew members have come to understand the benefits of always sitting on the toilet seat) and at the expense of the private cabin toilet idea.

Jokes about men aiming very poorly at their target aside, I got the impression that Terror Grin was referring to a malfunction of the toilet itself - a leaky joint or a backed up waste pipe could lead to some very unpleasant consequences in the room where you also have to sleep. And even if all 23rd century gentlemen all sit down for the deed, there's still certain associated smells to deal with - meaning that Kirk would still have to leave his cabin in the middle of the night, if only to get some fresh air!

Regarding the cylinderobe's part in COK, you make a fair point, but I can't see why the phaser couldn't be velcroed to the inside of the other segment.

BTW, thanks for the P.S. regarding the final 120° segment, I was just starting to seriously wonder about it myself. It's always seemed to be a shocking waste of space, but some sort of emergency equipment does sound plausible.
Doesn't explain why there couldn't be an overloading phaser in there either, though.

Maybe the entire cylinderobe (someone think of a better name, please) was broken and stuck in the "drawers only" position? We never see it otherwise in Kirk's, cabin, as far as I remember.


Finally, even if there is a toilet in the bedroom - where is the sink to wash your hands? Even David Lister's revolving toilet had that feature!

 

[Robert Comsol]

Maybe you (Bob) would prefer others not know when you've got to go, but is this a case of "20th century thinking" on your part, maybe?

Fair enough. Unfortunately I'm not at all familiar about Japanese habits but IIRC they do not mind sharing a bathtub (that would be my shower analogy) but are concerned when it comes to other "business" and prefer that to be as private as possible. Maybe a Japanese Trek BBS member could shed some light whether my cultural information is correct or flawed.

And even if all 23rd century gentlemen all sit down for the deed, there's still certain associated smells to deal with - meaning that Kirk would still have to leave his cabin in the middle of the night, if only to get some fresh air!

Well, assuming that this still is a problem in the 23rd Century, wouldn't the smell be worse in a communal toilet?

Regarding the cylinderobe's part in COK, you make a fair point, but I can't see why the phaser couldn't be velcroed to the inside of the other segment.

We aren’t addressing the core issue: Why did Spock not search the other wardrobe segment (Uhura’s cabin – assuming it’s a standard design which I believe it is not - did suggest there was at least one more), it is illogical!

Again, the only in-universe rationalization available to us, IMHO, is that it’s either a compartment you’ll need a personal access code for (of which Spock could be certain only Kirk had it) or a toilet seat where the phaser would become useless by falling inside because there was no stable support to rest it upon or something like that. Yes, it may sound weird, but then I’d like to read a better rationalization.

BTW, thanks for the P.S. regarding the final 120° segment, I was just starting to seriously wonder about it myself. It's always seemed to be a shocking waste of space, but some sort of emergency equipment does sound plausible.
Doesn't explain why there couldn't be an overloading phaser in there either, though.

Assuming the final segment stores an EVA suit (behind a locked panel accessible from the toilet segment), it could be subject to all kinds of sabotage (remembering how easy it is to get inside a private cabin as Lenore Karidian obviously did), so it should be locked away, only accessible to the owner and eventually be the owner’s responsibility to keep it fully functional.

Finally, even if there is a toilet in the bedroom - where is the sink to wash your hands? Even David Lister's revolving toilet had that feature!

Could be a sonic handcleaner or else. Again, it’s only imperative that you couldn’t place a phaser there because of the footage in COK.

Bob

 

[Mytran]

Well, assuming that this still is a problem in the 23rd Century, wouldn't the smell be worse in a communal toilet?

It wouldn't matter if the communal wash area did have a lingering smell for a few minutes - the fact remains; it's still another room and Kirk doesn't have to sleep there!

We aren't addressing the core issue: Why did Spock not search the other wardrobe segment ... it is illogical!

I rewatched the scene and indeed, Spock slowly searches all of the drawers before moving away to the desk. I still think the easiest explanation is that the cylinderobe is broken and can't move. Otherwise why not check every nook and cranny to be sure?

Surrounding these discussions in general, I suppose in the back of my mind are Roddenberry's descriptions of 23rd Century life around the time of TMP (and Phase II) where people are comfortable with their bodies and loose robes, revealing clothing or even public nudity isn't looked twice at. Such people would have no problem with shared washing and toilet facilities, IMHO.

I take your point about other Earth (or even extraterestrial) cultures who have their own notions of what is "decent and proper". Obviously exceptions could be made to specific cabin configurations (Uhura's quarters are a prime example, unique or not) but for the majority of the officers and crew communal washrooms would be the norm. I don't see why lavatories wouldn't be inside stalls/cubicals, likewise the showers (just to keep the sonic waves, dirt and aromas contained). Also, I would expect there to be small single-toilet rooms throughout the ship (for use by on duty crew) so anyone who doesn't fancy the public restrooms can use one of these instead.

 

[BK613]

Well, assuming that this still is a problem in the 23rd Century, wouldn't the smell be worse in a communal toilet?

It wouldn't matter if the communal wash area did have a lingering smell for a few minutes - the fact remains; it's still another room and Kirk doesn't have to sleep there!

exactly right, that was the point, it is another room.

We aren't addressing the core issue: Why did Spock not search the other wardrobe segment ... it is illogical!

I rewatched the scene and indeed, Spock slowly searches all of the drawers before moving away to the desk. I still think the easiest explanation is that the cylinderobe is broken and can't move. Otherwise why not check every nook and cranny to be sure?

Well one reason could be that the pitch of the phaser whine wasn't muffled to a degree that suggested that it was stashed behind the walls.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well one reason could be that the pitch of the phaser whine wasn't muffled to a degree that suggested that it was stashed behind the walls.

That's what I was going to suggest. Spock probably realized that by being able to hear the phaser he could rule out spaces that would've silenced it.

As for the stinky toilet in the room, perhaps they all have a built in poo-pourri?

 

[Ithekro]

Do they have sonic toilets, and do they have to learn how to use the three sea shells?

 

[Robert Comsol]

I rewatched the scene and indeed, Spock slowly searches all of the drawers before moving away to the desk. I still think the easiest explanation is that the cylinderobe is broken and can't move. Otherwise why not check every nook and cranny to be sure?

And - to my relief - he also lifts up the mattress (below the bed is probably another good space to store belongings) but he doesn’t check the area behind “The Corbomite Maneuver” wardrobe door (probably sound-proof, so he concludes the object can’t be in there?!). But I don’t like the rationalization that the cylinderobe is broken (why has nobody come to fix the captain’s cylinderobe?), once we start down that path…

Surrounding these discussions in general, I suppose in the back of my mind are Roddenberry's descriptions of 23rd Century life around the time of TMP (and Phase II) where people are comfortable with their bodies and loose robes, revealing clothing or even public nudity isn't looked twice at. Such people would have no problem with shared washing and toilet facilities, IMHO.

But in TMP the first thing Kirk does is to have the Ilia probe’s nudity covered. I’m afraid Roddenberry’s vision didn’t quite make it to the screens, so the intention is one thing versus the final depiction, IMHO.

Also, let’s not forget (Meyer’s TWOK depiction notwithstanding) that already TOS was under considerate Horatio Hornblower influence. And at least the captain’s cabin on sailing vessels of the Royal Navy (e.g. MASTER AND COMMANDER) did have an individual toilet, but according to “The Corbomite Maneuver” it’s obviously not behind the bedroom side door.
The mere idea that Captain Kirk would not have an individual toilet would be something I’d consider such a break with naval tradition, that I would find it simply unbelievable, but YMMV.

…but for the majority of the officers and crew communal washrooms would be the norm. I don't see why lavatories wouldn't be inside stalls/cubicals, likewise the showers (just to keep the sonic waves, dirt and aromas contained). Also, I would expect there to be small single-toilet rooms throughout the ship (for use by on duty crew) so anyone who doesn't fancy the public restrooms can use one of these instead.

I’m confident that this what we’re looking at (correction: what we would be looking at, had we ever been given the opportunity, that is).

Bob

 

[Mytran]

The mere idea that Captain Kirk would not have an individual toilet would be something I’d consider such a break with naval tradition, that I would find it simply unbelievable, but YMMV

I would really like him to have a private washroom as well (he heads back to his cabin to freshen up in TCM, after all) but I would rather he head across the hallway than have an open toilet next to his bed

Maybe some sort of executive washroom would be an acceptable compromise? That would be some sort privilege for rank, at least.

Back to COK and to be honest, I don't much like the "broken" theory either - it's a far too convenient way to explain many of the oddities in TOS - and you're right, a technician ought to have been assigned to repair it ASAP (unless he was away fixing the squeak in Uhura's door?).

So, the closet door wasn't opened, the cylinderobe wasn't moved, but the noise of the phaser can be heard behind the (hard to open) red alert hatch? Maybe the high pitched noise disoriented our heroes and they just weren't thinking straight?

Man, they were lucky!

Incidentally, the trailer for COK features a slightly different searching sequence, one where we get to see the plywood base of Kirk's bed!

 

[Ithekro]

Or maybe the cylinderobe was locked in place on purpose because Kirk wanted it that way.

 

[BK613]

LOL according to the hallway outside of Kirk's quarters in "What Little Girls Are Made Of," Kirk does have space over there for a room. A similar setup to what is seen in "Elaan of Troyus" for Uhura's quarters.

WLGAMO is a first season episode; did someone catch the corridor inconsistency and correct it? Is one his deck 5 quarters and the other his deck 12 quarters?

Or is Captain Kirk having trouble finding a comfortable bed?

 

[Mytran]

I'm not sure what inconsistency you mean - both have the same inner wall of the main corridor opposite the 2 cabin doors (normally occupied by the Sickbay set). However, it is true that there were substantial changes made to the corridor set after Season One.

Regarding Captain Kirk's cabin, it explicitly moves from Deck 12 (in Mudd's Women) to Deck 5 (in Mirror Mirror and Babel). Depending on how much weight you want to give to set dressing, there might also be a third location, as a GNDN door adjacent to the cabin disappears in between Enemy Within and Little Girls, the latter of which also has a unique wall configuration by the Turbolift (seen when Spock crouches by the Jefferies Tube).

As to why Kirk feels the need to keep moving cabins, who knows? The search for the perfect bathroom, maybe?