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Abrams dissing Star Trek... again

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... but alluding to a legitimately elected president of the United States--who was elected on a LANDSLIDE, mind you--is "propaganda."

I'm not sure you've noticed this, but Obama IS the President of the United States.

Sorry, but in terms of your saying Obama being elected by a landslide, no.

FDR's margin of electoral votes in 1936 was 97%. Nixon's in 1972 was 93.3%. Reagan's in 1984 was 95.2%.

Obama's in 2008 was 35.6%. A comfortable lead over John McCain, but hardly a landslide.
 
You're missing my point which is -- Star Trek shouldn't be backing any Presidents. It should be about entertainment. And just like rock/pop stars who wear their politics on their sleeves -- JJ is alienating at least half his audience when pulls stunts like popping off about Obama.
So? Why do you care if he is alienating his audience? Are you his agent? Do you have a personal financial stake in it?

Or are you just saying that celebrities should hide their true opinions in order to be liked by everyone? :rolleyes: Which basically means you want them to be too dishonest and cowardly to speak their minds, for fear that someone might dislike it, and that it could reflect badly on the success of their next movie/TV show/whatever. :shifty:
 
You're missing my point which is -- Star Trek shouldn't be backing any Presidents. It should be about entertainment. And just like rock/pop stars who wear their politics on their sleeves -- JJ is alienating at least half his audience when pulls stunts like popping off about Obama.
So? Why do you care if he is alienating his audience? ...

Isn't that part of being a ST fan? Wanting ST to be fore everyone?
 
^
You look scary :D
Thank you. :D

Isn't that part of being a ST fan? Wanting ST to be fore everyone?

Eh, I thought that being Star Trek means you like Star Trek... or some of them, at least. I didn't know you must want everyone to like Star Trek. For starters, that's impossible. Nobody and nothing can be liked by everyone. The moment you express any kind of opinion or attitude, you inevitably alienate someone somewhere. And if you don't express any kind of opinion or attitude, you will alienate people who believe that you have to have an opinion, and who will find you bland, mindless or gutless for not showing any attitude.
 
Indeed. At a time when Democrats (or "Dixiecrats" as they were known to black people at the time) pandered to the conservative movement which was, at the time, largely indistinguishable from the segregationist movement. The ideological switch--if you could even call it that--came after the Civil Rights movement finally triumphed and Republicans were able to maintain power by sweeping up votes of angry white southerners who felt they'd been betrayed by the Democrats. This, in the late 70s and early 80s, was embodied in the infamous "Southern Strategy." Who, after all, do you think Reagan was talking to when he told that fable about Wellfare Queens?

But I digress. The conservative movement is not defined--historically or presently--as advocating or even welcoming any kind of social change. The trend has always been, not just in America but in every modern society on Earth, towards either a suspension of social progress and "keep things the way they are," or a regression of social progress and "keep things the way they WERE" on the assumption that anything new or untried will necessarily fail. It is indeed the one thing all conservatives DO have in common, even among different social political and religious backgrounds. That Star Trek appeals to such people is hardly amazing; that conservatives could ever claim Star Trek is indicative of conservative thinking is just plain absurd.

The problem with all this is people think a single line can accurately divide people and their ideas. Conservative/Liberal. Republican/Democrat. Southern/Northern. Black/White. When you travel the nation and truly meet people you should realize that these labels are a fallacy.
 
The problem with all this is people think a single line can accurately divide people and their ideas. Conservative/Liberal. Republican/Democrat. Southern/Northern. Black/White. When you travel the nation and truly meet people you should realize that these labels are a fallacy.

Thank you. IDIC, people! This is exactly why no two politicians are ever alike. What about the greens? What about the libertarians? What about the Mexicans, the Asians, the Midwesterners, The Coastal populations? What about people who don't tend to vote down party lines?
 
I think the best kept secret in politics is that people don't really WANT political action or need a party line. Sure, most folks like the idea of a Star Trek world one day; but there is a big difference between plotting the course of the Enterprise and squabbling over who is going to win the election. Earth arguments are seldom worth the steam exerted over them.

What people actually care about is their families and livelihoods, which for the greater part they can control (whether they believe so or not). Primarily, most folks just want life - as far as the government is concerned - to go on more or less as it always has. In other words, don't fix it unless it is broken. Granted, it doesn't seem that way, because every 4-8 years a firestorm of opinions are exchanged, and people cast votes for one person or the other whom they see as the next "savior."

Realistically, everyone likes goodies. It is fun to hear a politician say that all of our troubles will go away in exchange for a vote in November. That is a magic "fix it all" pill that is more or less a placebo. After the election, most people go back to realizing that the President, or whoever, is actually just a human after all; but what does all this say about Star Trek?

Star Trek has traditionally enjoyed depicting earth-style transactions of political or other business as primative, laughable, and usually petty. In doing so, it has been correct; I think that the cumulative desire of most Trek fans is that Star Trek does not step down from that position and begin telling the audience who to vote for in 2012. To be honest, I do not think that it will.
 
I could go on and one. Star Trek has been full of implicitly modern American Liberal content from the very beginning. But a work of art can advocate a political philosophy without being propaganda.

Not when its attached to one singular political figure such as an Obama.

There is a huge difference between showing women in roles of empowerment compared to ascribing a specific groups politics to that empowerment. Can a woman be empowered and not be a "Feminist" or more specifically not a card carrying member of NOW? Must they adopt their entire agenda to be "real women"?

One can examine an issue and do it without specific politics attached. For that matter the best way to explore an issue is to represent both sides and let the viewer make up their mind on what side is correct. Though I know that can be complicated. It is WRONG however for Star Trek (or even CSI) to throw support or endorse any one politician.

When it crosses that line it becomes something dangerous and undermines its prime reason for being. Which, like it or not is to be entertainment and not an advocate for one side of the political spectrum. If you think its job is primarily advocacy then it should be funded by the DNC or maybe even ACORN and not Paramount or CBS.

Propaganda, typically, is a form of communication intended for disinformation, usually to promote a particular point of view by presenting false or dubious information favorable towards it or disfavorable to its competing theory. The line between propaganda and legitimate communications is sometimes fuzzy, but not so much that a filmaker's take of a particular political situation could be interpreted

You state that as though somehow Hollywood is not cause driven and has not had a clear history of agenda driven projects. I would have to say a large chunk of what comes out of Hollywood in this modern era is in fact cause driven and or pins its hopes still on anti-Bushism though it finds the monatary result less then satisfactory to be sure which should be a wake up call to move on and or produce a different kind of film.


Also I noticed up thread the old canard of "Can a Republican like Star Trek?" was alluded to. Guess what? Sure they can because Star Trek being so multifaceted can have many layers to it when done right and even a "Right Winger 'Neocon'" can even enjoy the allegory - until that is the allegory begins to get in the way of the true purpose of a TV Show/Movie and undermine its entertainment value.

Believe it or not TOS helped form my moral compass. I'm not so sure that's a thing to admit to in a public forum, yet its true. That does not however mean I always think it is an advocate of what is best for us as a culture or that I am often in full agreement with it - to be sure this for me was more of a concern with TNG then TOS where any allegory such as it was often seemed to be an after thought where Kirk and co would sum it up with a laugh at the end. In TNG it was always more a lecture told with a stern condescending English accent...
 
No, because that's what it is. Too bad you can't recognize Socialism and Marxism relabeled either...
As someone who is actually on a first-name basis with a number of REAL Marxists, I am forced to call bullshit. Marxism is a very specific and complicated ideology with a lot of well-defined literature behind it. It is such a virulent and mind-warping worldview that it is basically impossible to BE a Marxist without bragging about it. Unless you're just faking it to impress some cute girl (I know a few of those too).

Socialism, also, is a very specific ideology, one whose definition you are equally unfamiliar with. A simple de-prioritization of individual negative rights is not "socialism," nor do progressives universally advocate democratic control of a nation's economy (which is the fundamental tenent OF socialism).

Sure they can -- only Socialism and Marxism have proven over and over again THEY are not the better way as they've failed everywhere they have been implimented.
That's all well and good... unfortunately you haven't described what conservatives would advocate INSTEAD of Socialism or Marxism or any other conceivable system that would deliver the kinds of social/political/economic progress advocated by progressives.

Which is my overall point: conservatives have a long list of "Don'ts", which they believe may, individually or in combination, destroy the universe. They advocate very little POSITIVE action, except to step away from action of any kind and allow nature/humanity/industry/Jesus/the invisible hand to run its course. Thus we have the dichotomy between "Do nothing, and things will get better" and "Do something, so things will get better."

You've got a skewed perception of Conservatism.

Equal rights (the subject of LTBYLB) are not a political issue -- they are a human rights issue -- which is a different thing altogether.
And conservatives have historically been on which side of the equal rights issue?:shifty:

And may I remind you, it was Democrats who resisted equal rights for blacks and a REPUBLICAN who liberated them.
Indeed. At a time when Democrats (or "Dixiecrats" as they were known to black people at the time) pandered to the conservative movement which was, at the time, largely indistinguishable from the segregationist movement. The ideological switch--if you could even call it that--came after the Civil Rights movement finally triumphed and Republicans were able to maintain power by sweeping up votes of angry white southerners who felt they'd been betrayed by the Democrats. This, in the late 70s and early 80s, was embodied in the infamous "Southern Strategy." Who, after all, do you think Reagan was talking to when he told that fable about Wellfare Queens?

But I digress. The conservative movement is not defined--historically or presently--as advocating or even welcoming any kind of social change. The trend has always been, not just in America but in every modern society on Earth, towards either a suspension of social progress and "keep things the way they are," or a regression of social progress and "keep things the way they WERE" on the assumption that anything new or untried will necessarily fail. It is indeed the one thing all conservatives DO have in common, even among different social political and religious backgrounds. That Star Trek appeals to such people is hardly amazing; that conservatives could ever claim Star Trek is indicative of conservative thinking is just plain absurd.

You are being obtuse...which typical of those who think as you do.

Nope. Not at all absurd, TOS has PLENTY of conservatism in it. But I can see you are a KoolAid drinker so i'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind on anything.

I'm as indoctrinated in what I believe as you are in what you believe.

All I can say is, as long as JJ endorses Obama I'll be boycotting HIS Star Trek. And that's what I mean about alienation.

I'm not interested in Star Trek as Socialist propaganda tool.

I'm really more of a TOS fan anyway. I find little of the PC/preachy Star Trek worth watching more than once.

Lastly, Sharr Khan gets it.
 
Nope. Not at all absurd, TOS has PLENTY of conservatism in it.

I've been enjoying reading this back and forth so far, and I want to agree with the above statement, but...

But I can see you are a KoolAid drinker so i'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind on anything.
...why are we resorting to using last year's horrible buzzwords to bring down the dialogue? That's all those buzzwords do ... an ineffectual and frankly insufficient way to counter AND insult at the same time.

C'mon now, conservatives can pull off rational, well-thought arguments without resorting to such cheap tactics. Clips like "Kool Aid drinker" may work for Michael Steele and Glenn Beck, but it doesn't work for George Will and (well, now deceased) Robert Novak.

All I can say is, as long as JJ endorses Obama I'll be boycotting HIS Star Trek. And that's what I mean about alienation.

I'm not interested in Star Trek as Socialist propaganda tool.
I'm still not seeing where Obama is inserted into the actual film. As was pointed out earlier by other posters, McCain could have been elected president and the script would have stayed the same. It's perhaps one of the most apolitical Trek films we've ever had.
 
All I can say is, as long as JJ endorses Obama I'll be boycotting HIS Star Trek. And that's what I mean about alienation.

I'm not interested in Star Trek as Socialist propaganda tool.

The "Socialist Propaganda" I-Smell-A-Skunk move; that sounds an awful lot like what many folks are saying on certain political message boards which I know of.

I had the privilege of working a Macy's salesfloor for about a year; one of my colleagues was a Republican. I was whatever I am - a mix of a whole bunch of different ideas - and my three other coworkers were more or less Democrat. As it happened, the woman who was a Republican was so offended by our political differences that after a while we just came to an understanding that it was best not to talk to her at all. Mind you, nobody was attacking her, or even necessarily arguing against her views; she just wasn't comfortable speaking to non-Republicans.

There is plenty of stuff in the political field that makes good fodder for conversation amongst those who enjoy that kind of thing, and if you get me started talking politics I won't ever stop; but seriously - is America so messed up, so primative, that a producer's actions in the voting booth determing our actions at the box office? Petty!

Besides all of that, this isn't 2008 anymore; you just said that as long as Abrams endorses the President of the United States, you will boycott his movie(s). :vulcan:
 
Here's something else: George W. Bush has been on Enterprise twice: once in a shot with Tony Blair, and another of sorts in which is 2003 State of the Union Address is referenced. At no point did anyone, left or right, praise or condemn Enterprise as being a vehicle for propaganda. Similarly, when Enterprise's ratings fell, again no one blamed Bush on that. To date, that means Bush has had two references in Trek compared to Obama's... let's count it... ZERO.

So why are we doing associating Trek with Obama, positively or negatively, nownownow?
 
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