About those "DS9 vs VOY" etc debates

[Cepstrum]

I've come across here and elsewhere several fans (probably a vocal minority, I hope) express with passion that, eg, DS9 was the best series ever and VOY should be stricken from existence. Or vice-versa for fans of TOS and TNG who speak disparagingly of "Niners" and how DS9, with its dark themes, sullied the entire Trek franchise and wasn't "really" Trek at all.

Ok, those examples were a bit over the top, but I think my point is clear. (I'll stop giving examples, which could go on to Enterprise and STXI.)

What I'd like to know is, how many are with me in equally appreciating the series? I just don't get the notion that one must love one of the series and dislike/hate another.

Here are my thoughts about it:

I absolutely loved TNG, DS9, *and* VOY, all for different reasons. I'm glad they were different enough yet still clearly Trek. I do admit VOY by far had the most silly episodes, but I think that almost added to its charm, as did its slighty goofy but lovable characters and infamous technobabble.

And of course DS9 is great for serious, serialized story-telling. Nothing can beat it for drama, powerful acting performances, and its unique look at the underside of the Federation.

As for TNG, we have it to thank for DS9 and VOY. And it paved the way for the resurgence in television sci-fi. It had great characters, its stories transcended the (relatively, by later standards) poor SFX/sets, and its almost heavy-handed moralizing was in my opinion, what set it apart from the more typical dystopian-future sci-fi genre.. It more than any other Trek tried to present a credibly optimistic future for humanity — it was the quintessential humanist show and clearly a vehicle for Roddenberry's idealized future. And, of course, had many excellent and memorable shows that are just as fun and relevant 20 years later.

So I must say I enjoy TNG/DS9/VOY equally and am glad they all ran for seven seasons.

Unfortunately, I just can't get into Enterprise, despite many attempts and watching almost all of seasons 1 and 2, and some of 4. But I'm not giving up on it and plan to finish watching the arcs from season 4 and eventually the season-long arc in 3. I don't hate it, but I admit I would've preferred an early 25th century show, which is something I'm sure would not have gone over well with TPTB because of TNG-era fatigue. So I can appreciate they were trying to create a viable Trek product by setting it drastically apart.

As for STXI, all I can say is that I don't in general like movies, even Trek ones, but I'm glad it enriched the franchise with cash and cachet. My hope is for the new movies to do so well that they decide a new TV series must be done. I just hope if they do, it will be consistent with the Trek mindset and not attempt to emulate the more stylized and violent sci-fi shows of this era (even though I do like, eg Stargate Atlantis, I just don't want Trek to be like that.)

Sorry for the lengthy quasi-rant. I'm just curious about how many others love all the Trek shows and don't feel the need to elevate one while bashing another (at least for the most easily comparable TNG-era shows).

I look forward to hearing feedback. Thanks!

 

[Forbin]

Each series is different. People don't need to love them all. Everyone can have different opinions of each series. They can love some, hate some, be indifferent of some. It doesn't matter. It's personal taste. It's IDIC. It's what makes the world go 'round. But yeah, the vitriol between those who love one and hate another is pretty stupid.

For example, I thoroughly disliked Enterprise, but I don't think people who loved it are idiots.

They just have no taste.

 

[StarryEyed]

I liked all three 24th century shows but consider Voyager a step below TNG and DS9.

 

[Lord Garth]

I like TNG, before they went to movies, but not as much as TOS. The sixth season is easily the best.

DS9 is my favorite of the 24th Century series. Early-DS9 in particular is underrated.

Like New England weather, VOY depends on the episode.

Around 1993-1994 was when 24th Century Star Trek looked the most solid. TNG wasn't the new kid anymore, DS9 had expanded things further, and the Maquis episodes used to set up VOY gave Star Trek a connectivity that made it seem very much more like a real universe of its own. Definitely more so than now.

 

[Michael]

I'm with you. I love all the different Trek series. And I don't see why some always have to express their hate for one of the series in order to state their preference for another.

 

[Cepstrum]

Each series is different. People don't need to love them all. Everyone can have different opinions of each series. They can love some, hate some, be indifferent of some. It doesn't matter. It's personal taste. It's IDIC. It's what makes the world go 'round. But yeah, the vitriol between those who love one and hate another is pretty stupid.

^
Good point. I goofed: I didn't mean to imply it's wrong for people to like one series and dislike another. It's perfectly fine for them to hold such opinions and voice them. And most of the people here at TrekBBS are not going around bashing shows with mindless vitriol.

My real intent is to discover the following:

Are there others out there like me, who like all TNG-era shows more-or-less equally?

Sorry for the confusion. I certainly didn't intend to "bash" those who "bash" a series! It's good to be able to freely express your opinions!

Thanks again for your consideration. I very much look forward to hearing more feedback!

 

[indolover]

TOS was poo. TNG and DS9 were the best series, with Voyager in third place. TNG and DS9 had good storytelling, acting, and character development.

 

[Geckothan]

TOS/TNG/DS9 are the holy trinity of Trek, VOY/ENT are trash.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I like TNG and DS9 about the same for different reasons. If I had to choose between the two, I would say DS9. I grew up with it, while the other two were only seen as re-runs for me. I like VOY plenty, just not quite as much as its older siblings. :P

 

[Sector 7]

...and how DS9, with its dark themes, sullied the entire Trek franchise and wasn't "really" Trek at all.

You forgot its soap opera-like, overly long story arcs. I don't bash people who like it, but they do have a way of derailing most threads to preach the DS9 gospel and bash those who dare to disagree.

I voted for the third option. I like all but one series (guess which one). The debates could be fun, except for the personal bashing of anyone who does not worship that one particular series.

 

[RegFan]

I like them all, but my favorite is TNG. I'd love DS9 if it wasn't for the Dominion War that ruined the last three seasons for me. VOY was consistent in quality, but never got particularly good.

 

[Cepstrum]

I like them all, but my favorite is TNG. I'd love DS9 if it wasn't for the Dominion War that ruined the last three seasons for me. VOY was consistent in quality, but never got particularly good.

Really? I thought one of the reasons why some people like DS9 best was for its sweeping and dramatic Dominion War arc.

At least, that's one reason why I like DS9 (though as I stated previously, I like TNG, DS9, and VOY equally).

Also, I meant for this thread to include only the TNG-era shows. IMO, TOS and Enterprise are too different for the sort of comparison I had in mind: TNG, DS9, and VOY all took place in roughly the same era, with roughly the same level of sets and SFX.

And besides, as strange as you might find this, I've only seen one full episode of TOS, and that was a long time ago. For some reason, I've parts of the episode where Spock must fight Kirk (Amok Time?) a few times. I wonder if there are many other Trek fans who also haven't seen TOS. It's kind of embarrassing to admit.

 

[Forbin]

I'm watching DS9 on DVD lately, for the first time in about a decade. I'm in season 2 now. I know DS9 was less into the technobabble than the other two shows, but every once in a while Dax or O'Brien just goes into a scene of spouting the stuff non-stop for 5 minutes. I do love the show, but at time like that I have to clench my fists over my ears and scream STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!!!!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

DS9 all the way. TNG was good when it came out but has NOT aged well. I don't want to rewatch it...that way whatever good memories remain can stay that way, but I don't have to inflict the (lot) of bad on myself. VOY was a botched concept. It could've been good, but poor writing ruined it, and then Seven of Boobs made it even worse.

 

[Anwar]

Meh, there were problems with VOY's premise itself IMO. They should've just waited til DS9 was finished and hired a new writing staff, like Berman wanted. It would've given them the new blood and extra time needed to iron out the problems.

 

[indolover]

Voyager, along with TOS, had the best premise of all Trek series.

TOS obviously opened up the Trek universe, but Voyager explored a previously unknown area of the galaxy. From a writer's standpoint that's a field day! Voyager really is a regret in Trek terms IMO, since with equal production quality with TNG and DS9, it could have been a top series. It certainly had the potential to be.

TNG's premise was so-so, since they largely were in Federation space and only visited areas of the Federation/other races that Kirk and co. didn't live long enough to explore or make first contact with (the Borg, the Cardassians, Talarians, Ferengi, Bajorans, Trill, etc.) DS9 had the worst premise, since Sisko and co. never explored the Gamma Quadrant as such.

 

[Lord Garth]

Except DS9 and VOY had different writing staffs. I don't see timing as a factor.

 

[Anwar]

Voyager's premise needed more ironing out. Always being on the move meant they'd never be able to flesh out any of the aliens they encountered, they'd never be able to really explore the Delta Quadrant since they knew exactly where to leave, etc. Also, they'd never be able to tell big epic adventure stories since one tiny weak ship can't survive that kind of stuff. If they ironed out things, like removing their knowledge of Earth's location and having them be TRULY lost then they would be stuck in single areas more and could flesh out the region better.

Also, the Maquis were never a good idea for the "internal tension" thing since they hardly had any differences with the Feds to begin with aside from the Cardassians. If they wanted real tensions then the other crew should've been Romulans.

And maybe they should've just slimmed the crews down drastically, I mean with shows like Blake's Seven and Farscape they didn't need lots of recurring background characters because the crew was only 6-7 people at most. If VOY was like that, with an automated ship, then they could more easily focus on the crew without any complaints that they were neglecting the background characters.

TNG's writing staff pretty much got split between DS9 and VOY after TNG ended, so if they waited until DS9 was done and have everyone focus on one show and one show alone then it'd work out more. It didn't help that 50% of the writers and producers on VOY didn't even like the premise and wanted it lighter and softer all the time.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Meh, there were problems with VOY's premise itself IMO. They should've just waited til DS9 was finished and hired a new writing staff, like Berman wanted. It would've given them the new blood and extra time needed to iron out the problems.

(I can't believe this...I'm actually about to defend VOY...)

I don't think the premise was at all flawed. The trouble was that it demanded extreme continuity, even beyond what was required of DS9, and the writers didn't deliver. Since there were no regular supply ships like DS9 got, nor any visits to starbases between missions like on TNG, they needed to keep scrupulous track of exactly what was on the ship at any time. They started out that way in Season 1, but really lost track of it with only a brief nod to what they should've done in "Year of Hell."

Now, the whole thing didn't need to be as harsh as nuBsG or even "Year of Hell," but one thing that would've helped would be designating one writer/producer at all times as the "inventory maven." This person would have a full cargo manifest and all other resources, so they would have an at-a-glance dashboard of what Voyager would have or not have at their disposal at any given time, and make sure everything stays consistent with that. This way we wouldn't have stupidity like replicator rations yet running the holodecks for entertainment (not even mission-critical simulations, such as for a particular mission or for needed readiness training, which I could at least understand), an endless supply of torpedoes and shuttles, and all damage always being restored at the start of the next episode. This is just one example of a needed fix--but it would've helped.

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, VOY had writers and even producers who never cared about the premise and didn't even like it. Mike Piller and Berman both wanted it to be darker, and for it to be more of a struggle but Jeri Taylor didn't. She didn't want any arcs, she wanted the crew to all get along, she didn't want any recurring aliens, and she wanted to do holonovel stories. UPN wanted something closer to TNG than DS9 (since DS9 wasn't going as well as they hoped), and sided with her. If they had waited til after DS9 and just hired a new writing staff entirely whom they could make sure all were on the same wavelength then it'd be different.

But anyways, the show was never going to be like BSG anyways because they didn't have an armada of tens of thousands of people to deal with, nor did they have an entirely empty universe with an enemy constantly hunting them. VOY was set in a universe full of aliens, meaning they'd have plenty of repair bases and commerce hubs to go to for help. Being set in the Delta Quadrant, the only alternative would be for the entire DQ to be completely controlled by the Borg.

In which case, they'd be dead in less than 1 episode.