About this one bridge in the episode "Parallels."

[Norad]

Well, the Kelvin-verse breaks/changes the rules of Trek time travel has had been firmly established across a couple of dozen or more episodes through the years.

Actually, whether the time travel of Kelvin-verse is different from the time travel rules of Star Trek is difficult to answer - since Abrams Trek (2009) does not contain any useful information about it. We see that there is some time travel and we see Original-Spock remembering a different past to the one he founds here. That's basically everything that we really know. There was a writers' strike in Hollywood when the movie was written and it is more as clearly showing when watching the movie.
So, most of the information about what the "Kelvin-verse" is (including its very name), is from interviews with the creators of the movie - in these they are buzz-wording some things like "alternate timeline", "parallel universe" and so on, but it only makes clear what the script of the movie already shows: that they don't have a clear understanding of what they did there. It's the same problem we see in the movie when they are referring to a wormhole with the term "black hole" or to Klingon battlecruisers with the term "Warbird". The only sound explanation is that they just buzzwording any term that they think could somehow be connected to the broader topic. So since they obviously can't use the right terms for the things they mention, there is no way to identify what they actually mean, if they say "alternate/parallel universe/timeline".

Long story, short: If they would have had any clear idea about what they are doing there, they would have given that explanation in the movie. It isn't there, so who knows what it is. But I definitely agree with you that it's a complete mystery why no one in the movie tries to undo the damage to the timeline.

== Time travel in Star Trek ==
For some different "types" of time travel that we can see in Star Trek, here is a first approach to categorize them. Actually, most of these categories are compatible to each other, so that time travel in Star Trek is actually pretty consistent. Note that the categorization sometimes depends on the perspective (e.g. "Accession" could also be Category 2F, if we consider Akorem Laan's unfinished poems as an already changed timeline).
Category 0: There is only one timeline and the time travel does not seem to have any effect (due to insignificant changes?)
- Category 0P: Someone travels into the past and back home; noone recognizes any (significant) changes to the timeline. (e.g. "All Our Yesterdays", The Voyage Home(the Bounty), "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night", "The Sound of Her Voice", "Eye of the Needle", "Death Wish", maybe "Carpenter Street")
- Category 0F: Someone travels into the future; noone recognizes any (significant) changes to the timeline. (e.g. "Cause and Effect", The Voyage Home(Dr. Taylor, Whales), "Azati Prime", "What's Past Is Prologue")

Category 1: There is only one timeline all along, but it only exists because of time travel-induced cause-effect-cause-loop.
- Category 1: Someone travels into the past (e.g. because of some suspicious anomaly they found in the future), there they realize that they have to cause the events to happen exactly the way the original timeline remembers (e.g. "Assignment: Earth", "Time's Arrow", "Little Green Men", "Future's End", maybe "Captain's Holiday")

Category 2: A timeline gets changed to another timeline by time incursion and (mostly?) back again.
- Category 2P: Someone travels into the past and causes a change. By this, the original timeline is changed; but some people can remember the old version of the timeline; they undo the change as best as they can (e.g. "The City on the Edge of Forever", First Contact, "Past Tense", "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Relativity", "Storm Front")
- Category 2F: Someone travels into the future. By this, the original timeline is changed; the traveler is send back and the original timeline is (mostly) restored (e.g. "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Time's Orphan")

Category 3: A timeline gets changed to another timeline by time incursion.
- Category 3P: Someone travels into the past and causes changes to prevent some events from happening (e.g. "Timescape", Generations, "Visionary", "The Visitor", "Children of Time", "Endgame")
- Category 3PE: Someone travels into the past and causes changes. By this, the original timeline gets eliminated and the time traveler fades from existence. (e.g. "Time Squared", "Parallax", "Timeless")
- Category 3F: Someone travels into the future. The traveler is send back and the original timeline is changed (e.g. "Accession")
- Category 3I: Someone sees a possible future and with this knowledge the timeline gets changed (e.g. "All Good Things...")

- Category H: Time hick-ups (e.g. "We'll Always Have Paris", "Future Tense")
- Category I: Someone travels in time, but it is only an illusion. (e.g. most likely "Tapestry", maybe "Terra Firma")
- Category U: There is some time travel. We don't have enough information about the original timeline to make any guess about changes. (e.g. "A Matter of Time" (?), "Firstborn"(0P or 1))
- Category U2: There is some time travel happening in a greater time travel context. Due to the complex context it's difficult to say what the "original" time is or what changed (e.g. "Cold Front", "Shockwave", "Zero Hour")
- Category R: There is some time travel. I don't remember the details well enough. (e.g. "Before and After", "Fury", "E²")
- Category ?: There is just a lot of time travel. (e.g. "Shattered")
- Category Red Hering: The "story-device" "time travel" is used to explain away plot holes without giving any reasonable explanation or any motivation of the character's acts. (e.g. "The Red Angel", "Perpetual Infinity", "Such Sweet Sorrow", "That Hope Is You, Part 1")

See also: List of time travel episodes at Memory Alpha: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Time_travel#Background_information

Live long and prosper,
Norad

 

[Crewman6]

Actually, whether the time travel of Kelvin-verse is different from the time travel rules of Star Trek is difficult to answer - since Abrams Trek (2009) does not contain any useful information about it. We see that there is some time travel and we see Original-Spock remembering a different past to the one he founds here. That's basically everything that we really know. There was a writers' strike in Hollywood when the movie was written and it is more as clearly showing when watching the movie.
So, most of the information about what the "Kelvin-verse" is (including its very name), is from interviews with the creators of the movie - in these they are buzz-wording some things like "alternate timeline", "parallel universe" and so on, but it only makes clear what the script of the movie already shows: that they don't have a clear understanding of what they did there. It's the same problem we see in the movie when they are referring to a wormhole with the term "black hole" or to Klingon battlecruisers with the term "Warbird". The only sound explanation is that they just buzzwording any term that they think could somehow be connected to the broader topic. So since they obviously can't use the right terms for the things they mention, there is no way to identify what they actually mean, if they say "alternate/parallel universe/timeline".

Long story, short: If they would have had any clear idea about what they are doing there, they would have given that explanation in the movie. It isn't there, so who knows what it is. But I definitely agree with you that it's a complete mystery why no one in the movie tries to undo the damage to the timeline.

Norad

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie and I don't remember, but I thought there was a scene in Trek 2009 where the characters realize that a time incursion has happened and declare that they are now in a new reality. (Maybe Uhura says the final, declarative line about it??)

Which I thought was a genius move from a franchise POV: "Hey, we can tell all NEW stories with the TOS crew, but trust us, fans, we're not overwriting history!!" But it makes zero sense from a consistency POV, in that in just about every other time travel Trek story, the plots have centered around characters fixing broken timelines. In Trek 2009, they all but state that's impossible.

Which was the crux of my argument about how that movies breaks "the rules" that Trek has established.

I don't remember the details all that well, but that's what I think happens in the movie.

But if you're going to say that Trek 2009 is full of wildly inaccurate gaffes, continuity goofs, pseudo-scientific idiocy and a fairly careless disregard for the franchise's history, you will get ZERO argument from me! The movie is a friggin' mess.

Impressive work categorizing the types of time travel stories! I was focused mostly on Category 2. Those are usually what we think of when we say "time travel" story in Trek. Random business like "Firstborn" or "A Matter of TIme" aren't really all that relevant to the conversation.

 

[Crewman6]

How does one know that the characters return to their original timelines versus ones that merely appear similar?

This is form of speculation is utterly baseless and meaningless. At a certain point, we have to accept the story as presented at face value and the intention of people that made it. It IS a story, not reality, and we have to go on what is reasonable and what the stated purpose of the story is.

You can come up with an infinite number of utterly unsupported fan theories, but just don't expect anyone else to take them seriously. We don't know for certain that Robert Picard wasn't secretly a changeling when Picard visited in "Family", but we have zero reason to believe such a thing.

The stories tell us the characters return to timelines that are, for all intents and purposes, their own. Could there be slight differences? Sure. But who cares? Not the stories themselves, that's for sure. It's not remotely relevant.

For instance, we know that after "Yesterday's Enterprise" Sela existed. We have no way of knowing whether she existed in the timeline that we were witnessing prior to that episode. It's reasonable to speculate that she did, but we don't know that.

Huh? Sela did not exist before "yesterday's enterprise." She is a result of the events of that episode and her existence was retroactively created as a result of those events. In Season 2, there was no Sela. However, now the universe is different and she was there all along.

I fail to see your point.

 

[Phoenix219]

How does one know that the characters return to their original timelines versus ones that merely appear similar?

For instance, we know that after "Yesterday's Enterprise" Sela existed. We have no way of knowing whether she existed in the timeline that we were witnessing prior to that episode. It's reasonable to speculate that she did, but we don't know that.

She didn't exist in that timeline UNTIL the events of Yesterday's Enterprise. Then the timeline was rewritten with events where she DOES exist. In my opinion.

One Universe, but a timeline that can be altered un-endingly, rewritten, the canvas painted over as many times as necessary. IMO, an alternate universe (Mirror, the ones seen in Parallels) are a completely different constructs than timeline issues (City, Yesterday's Enterprise, TVH, First Contact).

 

[Phoenix219]

In a Mirror Darkly uses time travel like the kelvin movies, the Defiant from TOS travelled into the past and into another universe that existed before the ship's arrival.

I would argue that this just proves that the Kelvin Universe was a pre-existing alternate universe, that was already there, that Spock accidentally tunneled into. OR that there is an unseen "ending" to the tangent where the timeline has already been restored, but we haven't witnessed that chapter yet.

 

[DonIago]

She didn't exist in that timeline UNTIL the events of Yesterday's Enterprise. Then the timeline was rewritten with events where she DOES exist. In my opinion.

One Universe, but a timeline that can be altered un-endingly, rewritten, the canvas painted over as many times as necessary. IMO, an alternate universe (Mirror, the ones seen in Parallels) are a completely different constructs than timeline issues (City, Yesterday's Enterprise, TVH, First Contact).

What we don't know is whether Sela always existed in the "main" timeline as a result of the E-C being sent back in time (i.e. a predestination paradox), or whether the timeline we were originally witnessing was one in which she did not exist, but after YE we're witnessing a timeline in which she has existed, i.e. a different timeline.

Possibility One:
Timeline A: The timeline we've been watching until YE. Sela exists but Our Heroes are unaware of her.
Timeline B: The Klingon War. The E-C is thrust into the future and sent back with Yar aboard to Timeline A.

Possibility Two:
Timeline A: The timeline we've been watching until YE. Sela doesn't exist.
Timeline B: The Klingon War. The E-C is thrust into the future and sent back with Yar aboard to...
Timeline C: Very similar to Timeline A, but Sela has always existed after Yar was sent back from Timeline B.

 

[Phoenix219]

Its Possibility Two. Different timelines overlaying each other as changes happen, all happening in the same Universe (on the same Universal Canvas / Tape). One physical universe, with events being constantly altered. No tangent universes being created, as I personally don't buy that it works that way. Alternate universes are separate physical spaces that have always existed independently.

 

[Phoenix219]

As I said, I never saw "In a Mirror Darkly," but I understand now that it basically plays by the same rules as Trek 2009, which is that time travel causes branching timelines.

In NO OTHER instance of Star Trek does that happen. In those other instances where time travel occurs and timelines are derailed, it's all about characters "fixing" the ONLY existing timeline to restore the imperiled future of our characters. It's "Back to the Future" rules - someone messed up the timeline, our future is in danger, now we have to fix it.

That happens in "City on the Edge of Forever", "ST: First Contact", "Past Tense", "Trials and Tribble-ations", "Yesterday's Enterprise" and more.

The point is that the timeline has been "broken" by time travel and the stories involve our characters trying to fix it by various means to "set things right" and restore the prime/sole/only timeline.

That even happens in your "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" example, where the crew monkeys around so that their time incursion into the 20th Century never happens (and the air force officer doesn't remember it.)

Time Squared is not a relevant example. Neither is "Parallels", which doesn't involve time travel at all.

Only in Trek 2009 (and Mirror, Darkly, apparently), do the characters say, "Well, we're in an alt timeline now and there's no 'fixing' anything, so we just have to live with it."

In Every. Other. Instance. The characters work to fix the broken past to save the future and get time "back on track." Because there's just the one timeline and the changes in the past have imperiled our characters' own future.

Watch In a Mirror Darkly.

It doesn't conflict, like Kelvin does. Its an already existing universe, with a different history, that has an incursion from an alternate universe (Prime) by the Defiant. Defiant's appearance changes the course of (Mirror's) events but there is no time travel shenanigans involved.

People are confusing two different things.

Time travel does not create alternate universes.

Alternate Universes exist on their own. They may be similar, but they aren't created by interference.

Defiant tunneled into one, and Spock tunneled into one. There may have been time travel involved, or the Universe was just running a hundred years behind or so, so the past of one universe lined up with the present of another.

Kelvin Universe probably always existed, from the beginning of time onward, instead of the whole unrealistic concept of branching out, where entire universes full of matter and energy somehow pop into existence, just because someone stepped on a butterfly. Parallels Universes, Kelvin Universe, Mirror Universe, always existed. Time travel episodes are taking place in one Universe only. Alternate timelines and Alternate Universes are NOT the same thing.

 

[Timo]

Or then they are, but this creates no practical distinction because an infinite amount of timeline-diverging events is available for creating an infinite number of alternate universes, including ones where time (eventually, an irrelevant and uninteresting time T after the necessary divergence or a million) goes backward or Kirk (eventually) sports a barbed tail yet McCoy has the same stain on his desk.

IMHO, it's much more difficult to believe that our universe and ours only popped out of nothingness than that an infinite number did, and do, and will go on doing. "Us being special" never works.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

McCoy doesn't read minds.

I would think that every capital ship would have an beneath or telepath onboard, given Troi's ability to dispense sound tactical advice.

Nope.

What Dee does, and what Picard orders Dee to do is illegal and rapey, and any ship that notices that they are being mind raped by Deanna, like in Nemesis when Shinzon mind-raped Deanna, is going to attack.

That seat is for the ships therapist.

Who uses psychology to to analyze their enemies and Picard's Resources, until they can devise a winning strategy.

Therefore one would have to assume that normally that any other ship's non empathic/telepathic Councillor is usually also a psy-ops officer and political officer to be of any use to a Captain with 40 years of tested experience.

Dee may have those sneaky skills, but they are less valuable than her empathic abilities, so she chooses not to use them overtly.

 

[DonIago]

FWIW, while it makes little functional difference to the people traveling between them, my preference is to believe that all of the timelines we're exposed to have always existed, like train tracks running in parallel, and we just see people jumping tracks.

This doesn't mean there may not be a single divergence point (e.g. whatever led the MU to become different from the Primeverse, if we assume there was a single initial divergence point), merely that the timeline existed prior to the point of divergence.

But, again, whether the timelines always existed, or whether they're being "created", makes little functional difference to the people traveling between them, at least thus far in the franchise.

 

[Crewman6]

FWIW, while it makes little functional difference to the people traveling between them, my preference is to believe that all of the timelines we're exposed to have always existed, like train tracks running in parallel, and we just see people jumping tracks.

You're free to "believe" whatever you want, of course. Whether or not there's any evidence in the text to back up your beliefs is another matter.

But, again, whether the timelines always existed, or whether they're being "created", makes little functional difference to the people traveling between them, at least thus far in the franchise.

But it does make a narrative difference. The creators of the show are telling us: "THIS IS TIME TRAVEL." Why you find it necessary to ignore that and come up with your own fan theories is...curious to say the least.

If they wanted to make a universe-hopping show, they would have made "Sliders." But they didn't. Shrug. Enjoy the show however you want, just don't expect anyone else to share your private interpretations.

 

[Crewman6]

Its Possibility Two. Different timelines overlaying each other as changes happen, all happening in the same Universe (on the same Universal Canvas / Tape). One physical universe, with events being constantly altered. No tangent universes being created, as I personally don't buy that it works that way. Alternate universes are separate physical spaces that have always existed independently.

Yup!

Sadly, people keep conflating time travel with the concept of parallel universes. They aren't the same thing!

(Something that I wish the writers of "Loki" were aware of!)

 

[Phoenix219]

The problem with conflating the two is that it removes all stakes, drama, suspense and satisfaction from any time travel episode. Who cares if the heroes save the day, if they just created a better universe for themselves out of literally thin air, while leaving behind a suffering universe where Nazis won, Klingons won, the Borg won, the whale probe won....

The only alternate, always existing universes we have seen that I can think of, are where Lazarus came from, the Mirror, the ones in parallels, and the Kelvin, although there may be a closing chapter that defines it as a temporary timeline rewrite that we haven't seen yet.

The best show I have ever seen in understanding that these two concepts are completely different mechanisms is Fringe.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The scene from ST'09

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A direct reference to the above, explicitly saying the timeline was "created by the incursion of a Romulan mining ship"

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It's all made up stories. If "Time Squared" can be about 6-hours-in-the-past Picard "catching up" to the present even though that makes zero sense, then the Kelvin Timeline can somehow coexist with Prime and both the "changing shit" and "creating alternate shit" versions can work. Janeway called it Temporal Mechanics, I'm pretty sure you need at least 4 years of Starfleet Academy training to begin to get it.

 

[Phoenix219]

Two possibilities - one, the characters are referring to an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe, with there use of the word reality, but one reality that has replaced the old one, not created a new one
ex nihilo.... or two, the characters are making an assumption, not realizing that the romulan mining ship has wreaked havoc on the events unfolding in their universe, so the creation of the events and therefore their different lives and outcomes, yes, but not the creation of the physical universal space, which must have pre-existed any of this. There may be an unending multiverse of universes out there, but i do not buy that time travel creates an entire new physical space full of matter and energy every time someone steps on a butterfly. It changes the events in the already existing universe. Infinite universes also does not mean that every choice possible is included in the subset of that infinity, just that different universes go on for infinity.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Two possibilities - one, the characters are referring to an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe, with there use of the word reality, but one reality that has replaced the old one, not created a new one
ex nihilo.... or two, the characters are making an assumption, not realizing that the romulan mining ship has wreaked havoc on the events unfolding in their universe, so the creation of the events and therefore their different lives and outcomes, yes, but not the creation of the physical universal space, which must have pre-existed any of this. There may be an unending multiverse of universes out there, but i do not buy that time travel creates an entire new physical space full of matter and energy every time someone steps on a butterfly. It changes the events in the already existing universe. Infinite universes also does not mean that every choice possible is included in the subset of that infinity, just that different universes go on for infinity.

Also this:

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"For any event, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes."
Is not travelling in time an event like any other? Thus you have time travel "creating" a universe just like any choice ever made.

Keep in mind also that DS9 established that time isn't linear, only our perception of it. So timelines being created versus always existing is uttetly moot, anyway.

EDIT: Also it's NOT a physical space being created, but a quantum state of the same space.