About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[Michael]

I wasn‘t the biggest fan of the finale this season, but apart from everything that didn‘t work for me in terms of plot there was one moment that did particularly irk me, and I‘m curious what others think.

I‘m talking about the scene where Mirror Georgiou finally prevails over Control‘ed Leland and by all appearances kills him in what‘s portrayed as a pretty painful death. Georgiou is visibly joyful to observe his demise and grins gleefully.

Then I read this in an interview with series producer Michelle Paradise ...

TREKCORE: And it certainly gives Georgiou a hero moment for the season, after being such a villain last year…

PARADISE: Yeah, and I just have to say that the moment [where Leland is defeated], Michelle [Yeoh] just plays that character so beautifully. The moment where she’s watching him die, and she just smiled… I never cease to be delighted by that moment.

Which has me wondering whether we as an audience are supposed to cheer Georgiou on in her callousness. I get being a fan of a morally ambiguous character, I really do. Dukat, for example, was a rather interesting character on DS9 and I loved to watch Alaimo portray his demise. But I never felt the writers wanted me to applaud his vicious, violent deeds.

Sure, Control was a threat that needed to be stopped, there didn‘t seem to be time or an opportunity for mercy. And Georgiou is a human being from a universe where all she learned was to kill or be killed. It‘s all she knows.

But do the writers expect me to delight in watching a character enjoying the painful death of another being?

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Fuck Control*. You're damn right it was satisfying. I don't necessarily want her going American Psycho on everyone like that but in this case, uh, yeah.

*edited cause Leland didn't seem to be a bad guy...as much

 

[Michael]

It‘s satisfying to see our heroes celebrate the triumph over a relentless opponent, sure.

It‘s a whole other thing to have to see them delight in grinningly enjoying another being‘s suffering. I dunno, just didn‘t feel very Trekkian to me that scene.

 

[Starflight]

Leland was already gone, as I understood it, murdered by Control episodes ago with his corpse used like a puppet. All the pain inflicted there was against Control, and it's debatable if Control itself is really "alive".

The scene didn't sit too well with me either, but she was essentially just terminating a computer program.

 

[Timo]

Which is standard fare for TOS. When "evil spirits" are ousted from human(oid) bodies, we cheer with the heroes. And perhaps weep for the bodies if they happen to be dead now/already, such as with Hengist in "Wolf in the Fold". But obviously the evil spirit is greatly suffering, even if it doesn't always get a chance to emote that through its victim.

It's just that our TOS heroes aren't the grinning sort. Spock is stoic; McCoy sorta smirks in moments of victory. Kirk is above and beyond all emotion when fulfilling his duty. Georgiou... Is different. I could see Tom Paris grinning maniacally when the evil spirit fries. I could see Sisko cry out in triumph. I could definitely see Dax laughing the laugh that her husband doesn't dare let out. And I could see T'Pol lift a derisive eyebrow at the suffering. But those heroes didn't meet evil spirits of quite this sort.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Starflight]

The ones that really bothered me in this show were the crew cheering the destruction of a Klingon ship and the entire concept of blowing up the Mirror Universe flagship, both in season one. How many people died in both those incidents? How many non-combatants, scientists, maybe even frigging janitors and slaves in the MU's case?

I'd actually forgotten about both until reading this thread. More stuff from season one that's best sort of brushed under the rug, IMO.

 

[Kemaiku]

But do the writers expect me to delight in watching a character enjoying the slow destruction of a clearly evil robotic entity destined to do nothing but erradicate all organic life from the galaxy and presumably every other realm it can access without remorse?

Fixed.

 

[Sakonna]

Which has me wondering whether we as an audience are supposed to cheer Georgiou on in her callousness.

To charitably interpret that quote, maybe Paradise means that she's delighted by the performance itself, not the actions the character is taking. Like, I LOVE rewatching Female Shapeshifter scenes on DS9, because I think Salome Jens made brilliant (and often completely unexpected) performance choices, and I am delighted by the way she brings that character to life, even though I also find her unsettling and evil.

That being said, you're not wrong that the show has a confused attitude toward Georgiou's morality. (A confused plot element on Discovery?!? Now I've heard everything!) I might have delighted at her scenes, but DS9 was always quite clear that the Female Shapeshifter was not a delightful individual, and Disco has not been similarly clear on MU Georgiou.

In retrospect, it really would have helped if she hadn't been the actual Emperor of the evil universe. She'd be more embraceable now as a hero if she hadn't been Actual Hitler just one year ago.

 

[Michael]

She didn‘t cheer at it being finally stopped, though. She cheered at it being in pain. It’s a small but key difference.

But yeah, let‘s hear it for suffering, I guess.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Then I read this in an interview with series producer Michelle Paradise ...

PARADISE: Yeah, and I just have to say that the moment [where Leland is defeated], Michelle [Yeoh] just plays that character so beautifully. The moment where she’s watching him die, and she just smiled… I never cease to be delighted by that moment.​

Hmm. I suppose that confirms that Leland is dead? I thought he possibly would return -- albeit free of Control's control.

That's too bad. Overall, I liked Leland.

The ones that really bothered me in this show were the crew cheering the destruction of a Klingon ship and the entire concept of blowing up the Mirror Universe flagship, both in season one. How many people died in both those incidents? How many non-combatants, scientists, maybe even frigging janitors and slaves in the MU's case?

That's just like the argument in Clerks about the destruction of the 2nd Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

 

[ITDUDE]

Then I read this in an interview with series producer Michelle Paradise ...

But do the writers expect me to delight in watching a character enjoying the painful death of another being?

Shh you are not supposed to complain when a woman kills a man on TV in 2019. You're supposed to applaud. Especially if the writer is full of such glee
Never mind that the woman is a former galaxy dictator, that had absolutely zero redemption in Season 2. She doesn't need redemption.
And the man that was unwillingly made into an evil puppet. He doesn't need redemption either.

The moment where she’s watching him die, and she just smiled… I never cease to be delighted by that moment.

That's Trek's new executive producer...

 

[ALF]

Maybe because pain and suffering = joy and happiness in the MU? Is it meant to be a dark reflection of the PU. Would the MU characters be out of character if they didn't cheer on pain and suffering?

I don't think we can have it both ways. If you've originated from the MU and have a powerful position, you love pain and suffering, full stop. The concerns we're discussing stems from a lack of experience writers have with continuing a MU character into a drawn out serial arc.... usually we see MU characters for one or two episodes and that's it. They are often criticized for being one-dimensional. Does MU Georgiou seem that way?

There must be a plan for MU Georgiou, as she relates to Burnham's relationship with PU Georgiou. Perhaps when the series is over and her ultimate fate is revealed, her actions and words overall may seem less masochistic.

 

[Rasmussen]

It only worked because it was MU Georgiou. I didnt like it either and I didnt feel with her at all.

 

[Lord Garth]

I didn't cheer Georgiou grinning at killing "Leland" but it's in character and I don't identify with it. I don't need to identify with every character I see. I would take issue with the grinning if it were Pre-Control Leland but, as it is, I'm neutral.

Mirror Georgiou's not supposed to be the Moral Center of the series. If it were Burnham or Saru doing the grinning, regardless of whether or not it was the real Leland, that would be different.

 

[Mudd]

It‘s satisfying to see our heroes celebrate the triumph over a relentless opponent, sure.

It‘s a whole other thing to have to see them delight in grinningly enjoying another being‘s suffering. I dunno, just didn‘t feel very Trekkian to me that scene.

Well, these people don't give a shit about Star Trek other than as a property they have to manage successfully in commercial terms.

But, Paradis is apparently your new showrunner, so this is what you should expect going forward.

 

[Kemaiku]

She didn‘t cheer at it being finally stopped, though. She cheered at it being in pain. It’s a small but key difference.

But yeah, let‘s hear it for suffering, I guess.

It wasn't human, Pike even said as much to the Enterprise crew. Whatever was left of the person that was Leland was gone by the time the cyborg attacked Discovery. Maybe Control could feel pain thanks to stupidly merging itself to his pain receptors, and yelled in some mimickery of anguish, but I doubt it could "feel" as that was the whole point, it didn't get to do a Pinocchio until it got the Sphere data.

 

[Lord Garth]

They've had to make Georgiou change because she's going to be the lead of an upcoming series, but I wouldn't have bought it if they changed her completely overnight. So the grinning shows she still has a ways to go and it'll be a gradual process.

 

[Four Lights]

If the producers are that keen on keeping Michelle Yeoh as part of the franchise the best thing they could at this point would be to somehow bring back prime Georgiou to command Discovery season 3. There is a vacancy now there after all. I honestly don't think audiences are going to take to having a main character as mean as the mirror one is. No matter how much they keep on trying to soften her edges.

 

[Yistaan]

If the producers are that keen on keeping Michelle Yeoh as part of the franchise the best thing they could at this point would be to somehow bring back prime Georgiou to command Discovery season 3. There is a vacancy now there after all. I honestly don't think audiences are going to take to having a main character as mean as the mirror one is. No matter how much they keep on trying to soften her edges.

There's actually a way that could be done. With all that magical time travel stuff going on, Mirror Georgiou could beam onto T'Kuvma's ship at the Battle of the Binary Stars, displacing Prime Georgiou who is then transported onto Discovery. Mirror Georgiou was thus always the one killed by T'Kuvma.

 

[Four Lights]

There's actually a way that could be done. With all that magical time travel stuff going on, Mirror Georgiou could beam onto T'Kuvma's ship at the Battle of the Binary Stars, displacing Prime Georgiou who is then transported onto Discovery. Mirror Georgiou was thus always the one killed by T'Kuvma.

Yup. She's on Discovery at the start of season 3. If she was going to be running around with Tyler spymastering you'd have thought they'd have taken her off the ship before that point. Pretty easy to dream up a way to morph bad Georgiou into good Georgiou who then takes command. Would also allow Burnham to redeem herself, as her actions in season 1 indirectly caused Georgiou's death in the first place.