A Wolf 359?

[James Wright]

We all know that Starfleet lost 39 starships and 11,000 personnel at Wolf 359 but, does anyone know or can speculate as to how many people survived the battle?
Just curious after watching the video on youtube!
Thanks

JDW

 

[LeadHead]

There's really no easy way to answer that question. Ships of all sizes and shapes were involved in that battle. 39 ships were lost but 48 were mobilized.

Some ships were destroyed instantly, others like the Saratoga were damaged and left for dead.

The Enterprise apparently did no recovery operations and there were no life signs when they reached the battle site, so the survivors were likly picked up by whatever ships were left.

 

[Huntingdon]

Where did the number 48 comes from?

Most speculation I've seen centres around the idea that one ship survived, since Hanson mentioned 'forty ships' - although this could well have been a case of giving a rough estimate. He mentioned Klingon support so they could conceivably have been involved.

Ships speculated to have survived were either the Ahwahnee or the Endeavour. Ahwahnee because it was referenced later - but with a different registry. Endeavour on an unconnected reference in Voyager about a Borg encounter.

We saw about 20 survivors in Saratoga's pod that presumably made it. A couple made it back to the Delta Quadrant as Borg drones. Other than that - it's speculation with no basis.

 

[Timo]

48 were mobilized.

Where does that figure come from?

I mean, it's perfectly plausible, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything on screen. The known names of starships that might have been present amount to barely over twenty, and that's including names from computer games and the like.

The Enterprise apparently did no recovery operations and there were no life signs when they reached the battle site, so the survivors were likly picked up by whatever ships were left.

And one might think they went on some sort of doomsday mode, deciding not to go to the nearby Earth because that was a lost cause already, nor to answer any hails because the Borg might track them down.

Which prompts one to think that there weren't that many survivor ships after all. Perhaps just two or three, of small and weak types that would not have offered credible resistance anyway, and were better used for spiriting at least a few examples of H.sapiens to the safety of some faraway hideout planet.

I guess that after our TNG heroes stopped the Borg, those brave shipfuls of new Adams and Eves got a reputation they'd rather forget about... I wonder which was the greater pariah in "Emissary", the traitor-to-mankind Picard or the running-for-his-life-coward Sisko?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, the identified casualties from various sources are somewhere in the 15-20 range, so probably a good half of the combatants haven't been identified.

 

[James Wright]

Why do you consider Sisko a coward or Picard a Traitor?
Remember Picard was forced to do what he did against his will and Sisko didn't have anything left to fight the Borg with.
One thing I can't figure out is why the Borg totally destroyed the Saratoga while leaving the wreakage of the other starships to be found by Enterprise!?

JDW

 

[Jono]

^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

 

[James Wright]

After being kidnapped by the Borg how could Picard have killed himself?
Remember what he told his brother after their fight in the vineyard?

JDW

 

[JoeZhang]

^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.

 

[DarthPipes]

^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.

That would have been an intriguing storyline. Though I'd still keep Sisko as a widower. But it could have played like the Mirror Universe episodes...Sisko feels like he has Jennifer back, only to lose her again.

Criticizing Sisko for running is stupid. The ship was disabled and on the verge of blowing up. Retreat (as well as saving whoever he could) was the only possible thing he could do.

 

[SeerSGB]

^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.

Yeah, I think Babylon 5 already covered that turf with Sheridan's wife


As for Sisko and Picard, I can easily see why people would view Picard as a traitor to the Federation; very likely a rep that wasn't helped when he allowed Hugh to return to the Borg without the Borg comp-virus installed in him. And I don't see Sisko as a coward, he had to get off the ship and save his son and as many people as he could. All though I can very well see other Wolf survivors blaming themselves for not staying and fighting-- survivor's guilt and all that.

 

[DarthPipes]

The Hugh thing was a mistake by Picard. I can see how that would fuel the perception of him as a traitor or at the very least, a Borg sympathizer.

 

[Jono]

After being kidnapped by the Borg how could Picard have killed himself?
Remember what he told his brother after their fight in the vineyard?

JDW

You've missed my point. It doesn't matter what Picard could do or could not do some people would blame him because their emotion would rule over any logic or evidence to the contrary. They want someone to blame, someone to focus their anger and hatred towards whether their target fully deserves it or not.

 

[DarthPipes]

Like Sisko. I remember them mentioning in the TV Guide that Sisko knew that Picard wasn't in control of his actions but still was angry with him anyway.

 

[James Wright]

I understand what you're saying, what gets me is those people you say would view Picard unfavourably don't understand what he went through.
Was it Picard's fault he got assimilated?

JDW

 

[SeerSGB]

I understand what you're saying, what gets me is those people you say would view Picard unfavourably don't understand what he went through.
Was it Picard's fault he got assimilated?

JDW

From their POV, yeah it was. And to a degree, they might be right.

 

[LeadHead]

48 were mobilized.

Where does that figure come from?

Hanson says over subspace what sounds to me more like 48 than 40. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not a gimme as far as language goes!

The Enterprise apparently did no recovery operations and there were no life signs when they reached the battle site, so the survivors were likly picked up by whatever ships were left.

And one might think they went on some sort of doomsday mode, deciding not to go to the nearby Earth because that was a lost cause already, nor to answer any hails because the Borg might track them down.

Agreed, but the fact that there were no life signs in the area (That one I did hear right! Lol) indicates that the survivors however many there were had left the scene of battle, also had any survivors been within transporter range, it's likely that Riker would have ordered them to swoop in fast beam them up quickly and move on.

 

[SeerSGB]

Well remember, Hansen (I'm thinking that's the right Admiral) said the Klingons were sending ships. So it's likely that the Klingons got late to the fight and scooped up some survivors, along with whatever surviving starships did as well. Then, as Voyager informed up, we know some captives were taken and shipped back to the Delta Quad. So it's very likely that it's was a combination of the three things that lead to the area being vacant when the 1701-D rolled up on the scene.

Here's a ghastly thought, how many people in those escape-pods committed suicide upon when they saw the battle doing south, thinking they were going to be assimilated.

 

[Huntingdon]

Probably not many - Picard was the first one they knew of being assimilated and that appeared like a special case. I can't see Starfleet equipping escape pods with suicide pills either. More likely after First Contact events.

I'm not sure Klingons could have scooped up the survivors. They'd have gone straight after the cube to fight it - and would have been destroyed. So if Sisko had been picked up by them, he would be dead. It's unlikely they couldn't catch up with the cube as the Enterprise did so and made no mention of overtaking support ships.