A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor")

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

*And at first we didn't even know what the Final Atrocity was that actually ended the War, correct?

For a long time I had been under the impression that the Time Lock was the thing that the Doctor did to end the war. The Daleks and Time Lords weren't really dead; they were just locked away, lost forever, and they might as well have been dead because there was no way to bring them back

I'm sure when that changed. It certainly didn't occur to me until relatively recently that the Doctor actually committed genocide.

And as it turned out, my original thought was actually what turned out to be the case. Even though the Doctor remembered it differently, he did in fact lock the Time Lords away, leaving them effectively dead to the universe.

Yea, I mentioned this myself a month or so back. It seems early on, either "Time Locked and impossible to unlock them, so might as well be dead" was standard impression (Or else, it was inconsistent, and sometimes said "Time Locked", and I remember that stronger than the "I killed My Entire Race"instances), but, yea, I'm pretty sure it's not until a couple/few Series in that it was consistently Killed, rather than at least sometimes just saying Time Locked

The detailed list of The Moment, The Nightmare Child, etc, didn't come until End of Time, right?

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The detailed list of The Moment, The Nightmare Child, etc, didn't come until End of Time, right?

As far as I recall, yes.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

For what it's worth, I always understood it kind of like it was presented in End of Time (with the final destructive event and the time lock being different and everyone actually being destroyed). However, I didn't think it was so calculating. The reason was just the changed warlike Time Lords hadn't been introduced. I assume it was a final act of desperation to end the war and was probably spur of the moment.

I do like Moffat's grave choice better.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I'm pretty sure it was "The Parting of the Ways" that first established that the Doctor himself had ended the war by destroying the Daleks, and that Gallifrey had fallen along with the Daleks. But the implication was that the sacrifice of Gallifrey had been the only way to defeat the Daleks. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that we learned that the Doctor had intentionally targeted both races due to the threat they both posed to the cosmos.

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

It was in Dalek where the Doctor says that he destroyed the ten million strong Dalek fleet and his own people. But the Moment wasn't mentioned til The End Of Time.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Yeah, I was either thinking Dalek or the finale for series one. Something in one of those two episodes.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I think "Dalek" was a little vague on it:

DOCTOR: They're never going to come! Your race is dead! You all burnt, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race wiped out in one second.
DALEK: You lie!
DOCTOR: I watched it happen. I made it happen.
DALEK: You destroyed us?
DOCTOR: I had no choice.
DALEK: And what of the Time Lords?
DOCTOR: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/27-6.htm

"They burnt with you" does imply that they were destroyed by the same act that destroyed the Daleks, but it could be interpreted to mean that the Time Lords won a Pyrrhic victory, that they were already doomed and, with the Doctor's help, managed to take the Daleks down with them. I think that's the way I interpreted it at the time. "The Parting of the Ways" reinforced this when the Doctor says "My people were destroyed, but they took the Daleks with them."

I think that may well have been RTD's intention at the time, with the bit about the Time Lords turning evil occurring to him later.

 

[Photoman15]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Weren't the Timelords giving new regen cycles during the war? Well, the Doctor was there. Maybe he got that too just by being there.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Not only that, but they even resurrected dead ones!

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Weren't the Timelords giving new regen cycles during the war? Well, the Doctor was there. Maybe he got that too just by being there.

I keep hearing people come up with "Well, maybe he already has more lives for some simple reason" explanations, but I don't think there's any way the show would just shrug off the issue so cavalierly. When it's addressed, it's going to be a big deal, and it's going to be something that happens in the story itself. It's not just going to be some throwaway "Oh, he already gained extra lives in the War/when River resurrected him," because that would be a total copout dramatically. There's no story to tell if the event already happened.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Just like the show would NEVER just skip to the Doctor's final incarnation without the dramatic build up. It's going to be something that happens in the story itself and not just some throwaway. That would be a total copout dramatically. There's no story to tell if the event already happened.

Oh wait, never mind . . .

(Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just giving you a hard time because I know we disagree on that point. I agree with your point that the Time Lords probably didn't already give the Doctor more regeneration energy.)

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.

In the original series, no, of course not. But I assumed that in the depths of the war, the Doctor and the Time Lords ended up fighting on the same side and were cooperating in the final days. That is what the dialogue in those early-revival episodes seemed to suggest, until "The End of Time" made it clear that the Doctor had considered both factions his enemies.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.

In the original series, no, of course not. But I assumed that in the depths of the war, the Doctor and the Time Lords ended up fighting on the same side and were cooperating in the final days. That is what the dialogue in those early-revival episodes seemed to suggest, until "The End of Time" made it clear that the Doctor had considered both factions his enemies.

In The Original Series, he actually did go on at least the mission to Skaro (Of course he was pretty much forced into it) to prevent the creation of The Daleks, but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.

It seemed like, yea, he was out in The Universe helping folks who were victims of the Time War, but, I didn't get the sense he was cooperating/coordinating with them based upon what we saw in The Special (Though it's probably likely that through most of it, his priorities to prevent victimization of others by The Daleks' actions, coincided with the Time Lords, and there's no evidence that before he stole the Moment that he was actively working against them, but, I didn't get the sense they were actually working together).

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.

Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.

Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.

Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^Oh, I see. Yeah, I agree. The General was familiar with the Doctor, but clearly saw him as a renegade, a madman. I don't see them working together. (Although, admittedly, the High Council did recruit the Master for help in "The Five Doctors" and offered him a new regeneration cycle -- and then apparently did so again and followed through on the offer in the Time War.)

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.

Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.

Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)

The Doctors including Peter Capaldi's Doctor changed time and saved Gallifrey and Matt Smith's Doctor can no longer regenerate so it would be in their best interest to give the Doctor the energy needed for regeneration.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.

Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)

The Doctors including Peter Capaldi's Doctor changed time and saved Gallifrey and Matt Smith's Doctor can no longer regenerate so it would be in their best interest to give the Doctor the energy needed for regeneration.

But that couldn't have already happened, they weren't functional when he did that? That would have to be something to come once he frees them. <Head explodes from the Temporal Causality>

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Since I've never seen nuWho, maybe there's something obvious that I've missed in the meantime, but I have to ask. Even if more energy was pumped into a Time Lord body, surely there would one day come a time when that body simply couldn't handle the stresses of more regeneration? I always used to think THAT was the reason Time Lords could only regenerate 12 times - meaning, that's all their bodies could handle.

Or to put it another way: You can't stay awake forever by just drinking loads of coffee - sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Wouldn't regeneration be something similar? OUR bodies can't handle staying awake 24/7 - the stresses would kill us. Same thing here, I would think.