A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor")

[Iamnotspock]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?

Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority

They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

But, I disagree with the metacrisis, the show never counted that as a regeneration until now. There was never any concern shown that he had used one more up.

But the point is, Moffat didn't create that event. He's just choosing a particular interpretation of it, one that was definitely out there in fandom before the news broke. And as I've said, it's a reasonable interpretation in light of past continuity. Maybe Davies didn't realize what it implied in the context of "Mawdryn Undead" but Moffat did.

Anyway, I don't see what's wrong with Moffat changing the rules. Robert Holmes changed the rules in "The Deadly Assassin" when he suddenly asserted there was a 12-regeneration limit. Heck, regeneration itself was changing the rules, a new idea introduced to keep the show alive after Hartnell's departure.

And obviously they aren't going to stop making the show anytime soon. It was always a given that as long as the show remained popular, it would find ways to get past the regeneration limit and keep casting new Doctors indefinitely. So it's not like we're "losing" any Doctors we might otherwise have had. It's just a question of whether we get the issue addressed now or later. And I'm glad that I only have to wait 16 more days to get the answer instead of 5 or 6 more years.

And, how conveniently River's energy transfer has been forgotten!

I disagree that the energy transfer entailed giving the Doctor new lives. I felt the episode made it clear that she had to use up all her regeneration energy simply to bring the Doctor back from the dead, that there was nothing left after she'd done that. After all, it was an extraordinary act, and there had to be a reason why Time Lords didn't do it all the time.

Think about it: if it were possible for one Time Lord to "steal" regenerations from another, then that's what the Master from "The Deadly Assassin" would've done. He would've just become a Time Lord vampire, forcing other Gallifreyans to pass on their regenerations to him, and he wouldn't have needed to open the Eye of Harmony and nearly destroy half the universe in order to gain more lives. So it's definitely not that simple to transfer regenerations between Time Lords. Thus, that isn't what happened with River. She used up her regeneration energy to resurrect and heal the Doctor, period. He did not gain extra lives like a video game character; he just regained the life he already had.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I thought that was actually PC?

Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority

They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.

I think you misunderstand what we are saying - that the line "No Sir, all thirteen" is spoken by Peter Capaldi.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I never said I was against changing the rules. Although the examples you cite are more adding to the rules.

What I question is more that Moffat is artifically forcing Smith to be the 13 Doctor so that it can happen during Moffat's tenure. Of course, if he knocks it out of the park, no harm done!

Mr Awe

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority

They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.

I think you misunderstand what we are saying - that the line "No Sir, all thirteen" is spoken by Peter Capaldi.

Yup, and I've rewatched it a couple of times, to try and correct that belief, since it seems everyone (except you and me) believes it was the General who spoke the line, and it still feels like Capaldi is saying it.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority

They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.

I think you misunderstand what we are saying - that the line "No Sir, all thirteen" is spoken by Peter Capaldi.

Doh! Gotcha. It was neither Capaldi or the General, it was Androgar.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

What I question is more that Moffat is artifically forcing Smith to be the 13 Doctor so that it can happen during Moffat's tenure. Of course, if he knocks it out of the park, no harm done!

It's fiction. It's all artificial.

And like I said, Davies gave us the Metacrisis regeneration. How is it artificial for Moffat to acknowledge something that was already there before him? That's not "forcing" a thing -- it's working with what he had. I do that all the time as a Star Trek novelist. I take the information that's been presented by the shows and films and I delve more deeply into its ramifications or consequences. Far from "forcing" this to happen, I'd say it's more likely that Moffat felt obligated to acknowledge the Metacrisis and its overlooked consequence that the Doctor was one life older than had been acknowledged.

I mean, that's what he did in "The Day of the Doctor" -- he took unresolved loose ends from the RTD era such as the Time War, the oblique references to "the Moment," and the hints about the Doctor's relationship with Queen Elizabeth I, and he fleshed them out and tied them off. The Metacrisis is another loose end. What does it mean? Does it count as a regeneration or not? That's a question fandom has been asking for years, I think, and Moffat is simply giving an answer (if, that is, the reports are true, which seems more likely now that we have a second source). I don't see how it would've been any less "forced" if he'd answered the question the other way.

Yes, the War Doctor was Moffat's idea all the way, but it's an idea that worked on its own merits, so I really don't think it's fair to claim he only did it in order to accelerate the arrival of the Doctor's final life. I think he did it because it was the right decision for that particular story, because it called for a Doctor other than McGann or Eccleston. And that in turn produced the opportunity to deal with the 13-life limit earlier. And when you're writing and the pieces come together to give you a new opportunity, then take it from me, that's something worth seizing.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Sure, but it should feel natural and this feels like Moffat pushing the storyline one way. It may well work out fine! That's what I keep saying. But, right now, that aspect feels forced.

Mr Awe

 

[Guartho]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I thought it was pretty clearly supposed to be Capaldi saying the line. We heard the voice of every Doctor in that sequence. His line completes it.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Enforced regeneration: Second
Ship crash: Sixth, Eighth

Personally, I'd say Eight's was enforced. It was either regenerate or die.

The spaceship crash would not have resulted in a regeneration; it would have killed him outright.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I thought it was pretty clearly supposed to be Capaldi saying the line. We heard the voice of every Doctor in that sequence. His line completes it.

As Iamnotspock said, it was the general's subordinate Androgar, who'd been present in the War Council scenes all along. I mean, he called the general "sir." Would the Doctor be that deferential? It's also the same voice that subsequently says, "Sir, the Daleks know that something is happening! They're increasing their firepower!" Clearly it's the guy who's reporting to the general.

Besides, it was just meant to be a tease. One glimpse at the new Doctor's eyes, and that's all. We still don't know anything about his costume, his accent, any of that. So his voice was not meant to be included in the sequence. That would've been giving away too much.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The Doctor would say "Sir" (he is a gentleman, after all). The third Doctor said it often, even to people he was bickering with. However, it wasn't Capaldi.

 

[jbny67]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The Doctor would say "Sir" (he is a gentleman, after all). The third Doctor said it often, even to people he was bickering with. However, it wasn't Capaldi.

Yes, but Pertwee had a way of delivering it where the "Sir" almost became an insult.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The way the line of dialogue is delivered is not that of a gentleman saying "sir" to a peer, but a subordinate giving a report to a military superior. I'm frankly startled that anyone would've thought it was the Doctor's voice. (Besides, when the line was spoken, the General looked to his left, as if at a person standing next to him, rather than up at the screens as he would have if the voice had come from there.)

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I thought it was pretty clearly supposed to be Capaldi saying the line. We heard the voice of every Doctor in that sequence. His line completes it.

As Iamnotspock said, it was the general's subordinate Androgar, who'd been present in the War Council scenes all along. I mean, he called the general "sir." Would the Doctor be that deferential? It's also the same voice that subsequently says, "Sir, the Daleks know that something is happening! They're increasing their firepower!" Clearly it's the guy who's reporting to the general.

Except he has the next line and his tone and accent are completely different and he say Sir in a completely different way...

 

[C_Miller]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.

 

[Starkers]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I agree up to a point, but it might give the impression he was only looking for Gallifrey so he could get another regen cycle!

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.

You said it better than I. That's the downside with artificially rushing it.

Mr Awe

 

[diankra]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Between us knowing it and the end; the Doctor has presumably always known.
With hindsight, that adds something to Tennant's "I don't want to go," and if you think about it a recurrent theme throughout Smith's time has been that imminent death has been breathing down the Doctor's shoulders; his own supposed death at Lake Silencio, his future grave on Trenzalore, his repeated meetings with River (the woman whose ultimate fate he saw on the day he first met her), Rory and Amy's fates being set in stone by their sight of their own deaths. Also, stretching it a bit, Rory's repeated deaths, the other Amy in The Girl Who Waited, the Brig's passing, whatever the Doctor saw in his God Complex room (and Amy's sight of the Angels in her room when they would indeed be the ones to get her) and maybe more... It's as if the universe has been saying to him, "Everybody lives is impossible, it can only be everybody lives for now. And you've run out of ways to postpone death any longer."

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ In hindsight, sure, but even more so if we knew at the time!