A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor")

[Starkers]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Smith being the 13th Doctor is interesting insofar that Moffat clearly wanted to do something radical with the format, and he has, he’s cheated of course(but let’s be fair he’s had some help from RTD in that respect) but he has/will do something quite polarising. I’m not sure about it myself.

Obviously Eleven has made reference to regenerating, but I guess the following all have a get out.

Let’s Kill Hitler: He considers regeneration as an option. Now it may be that he’s so blotted the War Doctor out of his mind that he isn’t even counting him, and/or it may be that he hadn’t at this stage realised that it cost a regeneration to remain Ten. Interesting to note that the Tardis interface advises that ‘Regeneration is disabled.’

His ‘death’ at Lake Silencia: Whether it’s him regeneration or the Teselecta this can be explained. If it’s the Teselecta that it may be the Doctor programmed it to make it look like he was regeneration because he knew River would expect this, or because even if you can’t regenerate your body will still try (this works for it’s it is the Doctor originally).

The Name of the Doctor: How can eleven think of himself as the last Doctor when Capaldi comes swooping in in his Tardis at the end? I guess he could forget in the same way Hurt and Ten will forget him, but this doesn’t explain the curator and…

..ok my head officially hurts now!

 

[Tom]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

Also I wonder in 'Lets Kill Hitler',when the Tardis said 'regeneration disabled', it was not because of the poisoning but because he could not regenerate anymore. But then there is the whole confusion on how much energy River gave the Doctor, then in the following season the Doctor using some energy to heal Rivers hand.

Continuity would be best served if Capaldi was the last and 13th Doctor, he regenerated 'old' because he used the last of his regeneration energy. Series 8 would deal with the Doctor now being 'mortal' and the search for Gallifrey. He finds Gallifrey and then gets a set of lives from the Timelords.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Hmm, it seems we now have a second source for Moffat confirming this -- and while Moffat has misled us before, it seems rather a more definitive statement than I'd expect a misdirection to be.

But if Tennant was 11th/12th and Smith is 13th, then when and how did the Valeyard come into being?

 

[Starkers]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The logical answer is 10.5...maybe!

 

[Guartho]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^^ I don't remember that. Did he not even try? I would think in a situation like that, he would regenerate repeatedly until he ran out.

Can he do it again so soon, especially now that he's older?


Seriously though, I always thought some time had to pass while the regeneration energy built back up or something. The first regeneration I ever saw was 9 to 10, and the process seemed to continue throughout the whole adventure. Isn't the reason he can re-grow a hand stated to be because he's not quite done with the cycle?

 

[Starkers]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

That's the suggestion, I think it's something to do with being within the first 15 hours after a regeneration. Of course it's an idea that solely used in the new series.

Aside from The Curse of Fatal Death I’m not sure it’s ever been explained whether you could regenerate and then almost immediately regenerate again…

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

That's the suggestion, I think it's something to do with being within the first 15 hours after a regeneration. Of course it's an idea that solely used in the new series.

Although the idea that it takes a while for the regeneration to stabilize works as a nice retroactive explanation for how Romana in "Destiny of the Daleks" was able to "try on" several different appearances before settling on Lalla Ward.

 

[Starkers]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^That's true I guess, though it doesn't explain why the Doctor doesn't keep trying new bodies till he gets a ginger one

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^That's true I guess, though it doesn't explain why the Doctor doesn't keep trying new bodies till he gets a ginger one

Except that Romana was better at a lot of things than the Doctor was. Some Time Lords may have enough self-control or training of the right kind to be able to guide their regenerations, whereas for the Doctor it's pure trial and error. Maybe that's because he fled Gallifrey before he'd ever regenerated, and so he never had occasion to learn. (Although it's generally assumed, given Romana's young age, that she'd never regenerated before either. So that wouldn't really explain it.)

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The one thing I don't like about this is that we suddenly jump from Smith being the 11th Doctor to the 13th! It certainly seems very artificial. Moffat wanted to deal with this issue during his tenure and forced it to happen.

I don't mind the Doctor getting a new set of regenerations, or if he has to worry about each additional one as the series goes forward. I just don't want another character to assume the Doctor's identity as one rumor suggested. The show needs to be about the character that we've followed since the Unearthly Child.

Mr Awe

 

[Skellington]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Also I wonder in 'Lets Kill Hitler',when the Tardis said 'regeneration disabled', it was not because of the poisoning but because he could not regenerate anymore.

I hope this is addressed, directly or indirectly. Maybe he and the TARDIS for some reason didn't want the Silents to know that he was out of regenerations. Maybe he really did get a refill at some point prior to that.

Continuity would be best severed if Capaldi was the last and 13th Doctor.

It would indeed be severed.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."

I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...

It seems to me that there are four causes so far:

Old Age
Enforced Regeneration
Trauma
Poison

The interesting one is poison. Obviously, regeneration must purge the body of the poison, otherwise he'd keep dying until he ran out of regenerations. So, if he were to die of a fatal, communicable, disease, the same would likely occur. Or would the new body simply be immune to the poison or disease? This could lead to an interesting situation where the Doctor contracts a disease, regenerates, and is subsequently a source of antibodies.

Another interesting scenario would be if he died of cancer (can Time Lords have cancer?). How would the regeneration effect the cancer cells? All sorts of possibilities present themselves here, the most obvious being a sort of evil twin, a personification of the cancer.

Suppose he died of decapitation or a severe head injury? This is a specific case of trauma, but one still has to wonder how it would effect the next regeneration. It would depend upon the specifics of the regeneration process, of course, but it's possible that the next Doctor could be retarded or at least amnesiac.

This is an interesting train of thought.

Yeah, I can just imagine that not having a head might lead to amnesia...

^That's true I guess, though it doesn't explain why the Doctor doesn't keep trying new bodies till he gets a ginger one

Except that Romana was better at a lot of things than the Doctor was. Some Time Lords may have enough self-control or training of the right kind to be able to guide their regenerations, whereas for the Doctor it's pure trial and error. Maybe that's because he fled Gallifrey before he'd ever regenerated, and so he never had occasion to learn. (Although it's generally assumed, given Romana's young age, that she'd never regenerated before either. So that wouldn't really explain it.)

It was made clear in The Ribos Operation that Romana is in the top-whatever percent of her class. Her Academy grades are higher than the Doctor's, so I just took that to mean she knew the biology and psychology of regeneration better than the Doctor did.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?

 

[Skellington]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."

I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...

Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The one thing I don't like about this is that we suddenly jump from Smith being the 11th Doctor to the 13th! It certainly seems very artificial. Moffat wanted to deal with this issue during his tenure and forced it to happen.

Well, it was Davies who threw in the Metacrisis regeneration. Moffat's just saying (evidently) that it counted as a full regeneration, which makes sense given what "Mawdryn Undead" established about a Time Lord having only twelve "packets" of regeneration energy available. So arguably the only new element he's added is the War Doctor.

I don't really mind the surprise. Doctor Who should have an element of mystery and the unexpected about the Doctor. I'm enjoying these new revelations; I like them better than the retconning that was attempted back in "Silver Nemesis" and the novels following the Cartmel Masterplan. And I don't mind if we get the regeneration-limit issue resolved now. I just wish we'd get an explanation for the Valeyard too.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."

I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...

Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_%28novel%29

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The one thing I don't like about this is that we suddenly jump from Smith being the 11th Doctor to the 13th! It certainly seems very artificial. Moffat wanted to deal with this issue during his tenure and forced it to happen.

Well, it was Davies who threw in the Metacrisis regeneration. Moffat's just saying (evidently) that it counted as a full regeneration, which makes sense given what "Mawdryn Undead" established about a Time Lord having only twelve "packets" of regeneration energy available. So arguably the only new element he's added is the War Doctor.

I don't really mind the surprise. Doctor Who should have an element of mystery and the unexpected about the Doctor. I'm enjoying these new revelations; I like them better than the retconning that was attempted back in "Silver Nemesis" and the novels following the Cartmel Masterplan. And I don't mind if we get the regeneration-limit issue resolved now. I just wish we'd get an explanation for the Valeyard too.

I'll have a better idea how much I mind after the episode airs!

Right now, I just don't like the idea of making it happening just so Moffat can work with it. But, he knocked it out of the park for the anniversary special so if he does that again, it'll have been worth it!

But, I disagree with the metacrisis, the show never counted that as a regeneration until now. There was never any concern shown that he had used one more up.

And, how conveniently River's energy transfer has been forgotten!

I think Moffat wanted to get his hands on this subject area. All fine and good if he knocks this one out of the park. We'll soon find out.

Mr Awe

 

[Skellington]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...

Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_%28novel%29

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.

Season 6B does have its merits (explaining the older Doctor and Jamie, the different console room, Jamie's familiarity with the concept of Time Lords and the Doctor's status as their agent). Shouldn't have been necessary, though.

(Edit: Ah. Just checked the wikia for The Two Doctors and it seems that World Game explains the Victoria thing as

Spoiler: Victoria.

a memory implanted in Jamie's mind by the Time Lords.

Got it, thanks.)

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_(novel)

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.

Season 6B does have its merits (explaining the older Doctor and Jamie, the different console room, Jamie's familiarity with the concept of Time Lords and the Doctor's status as their agent). Shouldn't have been necessary, though.

I honestly believe Robert Holmes had a plan (maybe even a Masterplan, LOL) about the Second Doctor that just never panned out - due obviously to Troughton and, more importantly, Holmes' deaths. What that plan would've been beyond The Two Doctors, of course, remains a mystery. But thats my own opinion on this.

And yeah, it does seemingly look unecessary.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?

Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority