A Soul?

[Starborn Dragon]

So this was inspired by this line:

"You can create people without a soul??"

Well, how can we know we do have a soul?

And what about clones? Would they have a soul?

And why would a soul be necessary for human existence?

And what about Data?

And would only humans have souls?

What about the Founders and their goo? Would that be a good physical body to house a soul if they exist?

What about the Horta? Does it have a soul because it is a mineral based life form or is only flesh based life forms capable of having a soul?


These are questions I have no answers for.

So I present them to you.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I think this goes a bit beyond the purview of General Trek Discussion. But, since you asked:

IF a soul is an emergent property of a self-aware being, then any form capable of housing a self-aware being could contain a soul.

IF a soul is something bestowed by a deity or other religious or metaphysical force, then it would follow the rules of those systems. Some aliens/androids might be regarded or regard themselves as having souls/katras/whatever, and others might not. Most Christian churches, I suspect, would extend having a soul to anything self-aware and capable of sin. (Or, more cynically, anything capable of putting money on the plate. )

 

[USS Triumphant]

As an addendum, it occurs to me that certain species might have an actual mechanical determination of whether or not they think a being has a soul (or whatever they call their equivalent). Some Betazoids might only consider beings they can interact with telepathically to be ensouled. Some Proto-Vulcans similarly might only consider beings they can touch with their mental powers to have souls/katras. And so on.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In the Star Trek universe pretty much anything sapient has a soul.

 

[hux]

Well, how can we know we do have a soul?

You can feel it in your elbow (especially after big meals....it's a bit like irritable bower syndrome)

And what about clones? Would they have a soul?

Yes but they're slightly curved (and sometimes brown)

And why would a soul be necessary for human existence?

It helps us to dance

And what about Data?

Data has a soul but it's offensive to 17 Gods (12 are ok with it)

And would only humans have souls?

Yes, because Jesus didn't die for Vulcans. Vulcans are unworthy

What about the Founders and their goo? Would that be a good physical body to house a soul if they exist?

Souls are made of odourless gas so they should be fine

What about the Horta? Does it have a soul because it is a mineral based life form or is only flesh based life forms capable of having a soul?

Non fleshy life makes Jesus cry

These are questions I have no answers for.

The soul is a gas. It mostly lives in people's ankles and hair. Male souls are 30% bigger than female souls. Only fish have been proven not to have souls. Dwarves have mini souls. When you fart and follow through, that's your soul trying to get out

 

[Kilana2]

And what about clones? Would they have a soul?


What about the Horta? Does it have a soul because it is a mineral based life form or is only flesh based life forms capable of having a soul?

As we all know Horta communicate telepathically. They are sentient beings. They have a soul.

As to clones. I can only speak for myself. The Kilana clones have souls. But the Founders could take them away, e. g. by not recloning them intentionally. The Founders decide about the live and death of Vorta clones.

 

[dswynne1]

Yes, in the context of Star Trek, there is a soul. If the essence of the being can be transferred, stored or carried about, then that is the sci-fi definition of a soul.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

I put this discussion here because I didn't know where else to put it.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I put this discussion here because I didn't know where else to put it.

General Trek Discussion IS actually probably the best place for this discussion, but topics that may result in religious arguments are generally avoided. Everyone here, with one exception, is carrying on respectfully and seriously with the topic, though, so as long as that continues....

 

[Albertese]

In real life, a person's consciousness, memory, and personality seem to be emergent qualities of the brain; a complex and little understood function of neurons, synapses, and other gray goodies tucked inside the skull.

In scripture (the Bible anyway -- I'm not as familiar with the texts of other faiths), the original words most modern versions render as "soul" (Hebrew: nephesh, Greek: psykhe, Latin: spiritus) all just mean "breath" or "breather" and from context are seen to refer to the actual living breathing body rather than an immaterial immortal meta-being. In fact, there are numerous verses which describe souls dying. Even animals are referred to as being souls in that they breath and are alive. The idea of an immortal ghost type of soul had taken root in various Jewish sects which began to embrace Hellenistic philosophy and seems to have affected the writers of the later Christian canon to differing degrees. Even then, the prevailing idea seems to have been that the human breathing soul would die and then be resurrected to heaven as "new creation" which was the same person but immaterial and incorruptible. By the end of the Second Century the soul as popularly imagined today was basically fully formed.

I think it's fair to say that in the context of Star Trek, there are souls in the popular modern sense. At least in that there is some immaterial and transferable property involving memory and personality which can be stored in glowing spheres and later loaded into the bodies of other people ("Return to Tomorrow"), can be swapped between two different people ("The Turnabout Intruder," "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"), can be loaded into and for a time piggy-back along with someone else and then return to a recovered body (The Search For Spock), and I'm sure there are other examples I can't think of at the moment. Those are just off the top of my head.

My point is that none of this would be possible if indeed the personality and memory of a person were solely the construct of a person's physical brain. These would need to be a separate and discrete package which is somehow associated with a mind rather than being materially of it... does that make sense?

That's my contribution to this thread. I hope I kept it civil.

--Alex

 

[1001001]

Hmmm...

I suppose this is okay as long as it remains focused on the Trek Universe.

A general debate on the soul will be closed, and you can discuss that in Misc or TNZ.

 

[Albertese]

I was thinking about this more and it occurred to me that maybe this idea of a Trek soul is intrinsic to creatures throughout the setting and is in fact the seed of non-corporeal life.

Think about it, folks like the Organians (IIRC) claim that they were regular people too at some point long ago but that they evolved beyond the need for bodies. We see this happen in real time with John Doe in "Transfigurations." There is even speculation that the Q were at one point normal corporeal beings.

So what's involved? The "soul" seems to be able to develop the ability to manipulate things by telekinetic means, at which point the actual body eventually becomes superfluous, or at best, optional. I would imagine that telepathy and telekinesis in corporeal beings is an early expression of the non-corporeal "soul's" ability. Humans with a high ESPer rating are those whose "souls" are more capable of these tricks than others. And it can be artificially boosted, as in Gary Mitchell's trip through the Galactic Barrier and the Thasians tweaking of Charles Evans. Betazoids, with their easy telepathy are likely a step further beyond humans in terms of the evolutionary development of their "souls."

It's an interesting idea that I just thought about last night while trying to fall asleep. But it actually does tie a lot of the weird crap in Star Trek together in a concise manner.

--Alex

 

[USS Triumphant]

It's an interesting idea that I just thought about last night while trying to fall asleep. But it actually does tie a lot of the weird crap in Star Trek together in a concise manner.

Yep. Me likey.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Haven and all the Traveler episodes in TNG did make it pretty clear that in the Trek universe, thought is interweaved with space and time.

Also in The Offspring, it seemed a lot like when Lal was feeling emotions, Troi could sense them.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

I was thinking about this more and it occurred to me that maybe this idea of a Trek soul is intrinsic to creatures throughout the setting and is in fact the seed of non-corporeal life.

Think about it, folks like the Organians (IIRC) claim that they were regular people too at some point long ago but that they evolved beyond the need for bodies. We see this happen in real time with John Doe in "Transfigurations." There is even speculation that the Q were at one point normal corporeal beings.

So what's involved? The "soul" seems to be able to develop the ability to manipulate things by telekinetic means, at which point the actual body eventually becomes superfluous, or at best, optional. I would imagine that telepathy and telekinesis in corporeal beings is an early expression of the non-corporeal "soul's" ability. Humans with a high ESPer rating are those whose "souls" are more capable of these tricks than others. And it can be artificially boosted, as in Gary Mitchell's trip through the Galactic Barrier and the Thasians tweaking of Charles Evans. Betazoids, with their easy telepathy are likely a step further beyond humans in terms of the evolutionary development of their "souls."

It's an interesting idea that I just thought about last night while trying to fall asleep. But it actually does tie a lot of the weird crap in Star Trek together in a concise manner.

--Alex

That's a good connection I hadn't caught.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I was thinking about this more and it occurred to me that maybe this idea of a Trek soul is intrinsic to creatures throughout the setting and is in fact the seed of non-corporeal life.

Think about it, folks like the Organians (IIRC) claim that they were regular people too at some point long ago but that they evolved beyond the need for bodies. We see this happen in real time with John Doe in "Transfigurations." There is even speculation that the Q were at one point normal corporeal beings.

So what's involved? The "soul" seems to be able to develop the ability to manipulate things by telekinetic means, at which point the actual body eventually becomes superfluous, or at best, optional. I would imagine that telepathy and telekinesis in corporeal beings is an early expression of the non-corporeal "soul's" ability. Humans with a high ESPer rating are those whose "souls" are more capable of these tricks than others. And it can be artificially boosted, as in Gary Mitchell's trip through the Galactic Barrier and the Thasians tweaking of Charles Evans. Betazoids, with their easy telepathy are likely a step further beyond humans in terms of the evolutionary development of their "souls."

It's an interesting idea that I just thought about last night while trying to fall asleep. But it actually does tie a lot of the weird crap in Star Trek together in a concise manner.

--Alex

That's a good connection I hadn't caught.

Indeed it is, and same here! The existence of non-corporeal energy-only beings almost proves the existence of souls in the TrekVerse, for what is this "energy" if not a "soul" by another name? It cannot be mechanically or intrinsically tied to the sum of all parts of a physical body if the body doesn't exist.

Damn, Albertese, well done!

 

[Lapis Exilis]

I was thinking about this more and it occurred to me that maybe this idea of a Trek soul is intrinsic to creatures throughout the setting and is in fact the seed of non-corporeal life.

Think about it, folks like the Organians (IIRC) claim that they were regular people too at some point long ago but that they evolved beyond the need for bodies. We see this happen in real time with John Doe in "Transfigurations." There is even speculation that the Q were at one point normal corporeal beings.

So what's involved? The "soul" seems to be able to develop the ability to manipulate things by telekinetic means, at which point the actual body eventually becomes superfluous, or at best, optional. I would imagine that telepathy and telekinesis in corporeal beings is an early expression of the non-corporeal "soul's" ability. Humans with a high ESPer rating are those whose "souls" are more capable of these tricks than others. And it can be artificially boosted, as in Gary Mitchell's trip through the Galactic Barrier and the Thasians tweaking of Charles Evans. Betazoids, with their easy telepathy are likely a step further beyond humans in terms of the evolutionary development of their "souls."

It's an interesting idea that I just thought about last night while trying to fall asleep. But it actually does tie a lot of the weird crap in Star Trek together in a concise manner.

--Alex

That's a good connection I hadn't caught.

Indeed it is, and same here! The existence of non-corporeal energy-only beings almost proves the existence of souls in the TrekVerse, for what is this "energy" if not a "soul" by another name? It cannot be mechanically or intrinsically tied to the sum of all parts of a physical body if the body doesn't exist.

Damn, Albertese, well done!

In which case, souls in Star Trek are less the Western kind and more of the Eastern sort, in human religious philosophy. In Hinduism, soul is referred to as Atman, and is seen as the primary and true self of the individual. The purpose of the cycle of life, death and rebirth is to come to identify with that true self, rather than the transient self of each life (that is the self which experiences changing phenomena) and realize that one's Atman is equivalent to Brahman, the ultimate root of reality, which is seen as the creative principle which lies realized in the whole world (or universe in this case).

This would explain why there appears to be a progressive aspect to souls in Star Trek, wherein as a species'* souls move from a primitive to a more complex state, they are able to manipulate more of the fundamental forces of the universe because they are coming to a merging of individual soul with Universal soul.

* It appears in Star Trek that there are both individual souls such as the Traveler which are presumably extremely old individual beings whose souls have evolved. The Q are a "continuum" and therefore appear to be a joined species in some way, as are the Founders and possibly the Organians (no information is given as to whether they are truly individual or a collective).

So, an interesting question emerges - are species which manipulate space-time with technology (humans, the Borg), as opposed to "soulfully", more primitive species? Or simply incapable of soul development? Could it be that the Q have souls (being capable of direct manipulation of space-time with their will), but humans (mere tinkerers with machines) don't?

 

[Queen Mab]

Well, how can we know we do have a soul?

You can feel it in your elbow (especially after big meals....it's a bit like irritable bower syndrome)

And what about clones? Would they have a soul?

Yes but they're slightly curved (and sometimes brown)



It helps us to dance



Data has a soul but it's offensive to 17 Gods (12 are ok with it)



Yes, because Jesus didn't die for Vulcans. Vulcans are unworthy



Souls are made of odourless gas so they should be fine

What about the Horta? Does it have a soul because it is a mineral based life form or is only flesh based life forms capable of having a soul?

Non fleshy life makes Jesus cry

These are questions I have no answers for.

The soul is a gas. It mostly lives in people's ankles and hair. Male souls are 30% bigger than female souls. Only fish have been proven not to have souls. Dwarves have mini souls. When you fart and follow through, that's your soul trying to get out

Hux, please! You're making a mockery of this otherwise serious discussion.


Seriously though, nothing has a soul.
Why do you think that it is a real thing?
Where is the evidence for this thing you call a soul (Edit: For all of the above, either in real life, or in the world of Star Trek)?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Seriously though, nothing has a soul.
Why do you think that it is a real thing?
Where is the evidence for this thing you call a soul (Edit: For all of the above, either in real life, or in the world of Star Trek)?

You're referring to your belief about the real world, which is fine. (But I believe you'll find you'll "make more friends and influence people" if you internally accept the word "soul" as short-hand for the emergent property of living beings that is also known as "self-awareness" - as I do. )

In Trek, however, a "soul" as the religious would have it, or something so like it as to be the same for just about all intents and purposes, IS in play - and examples have been provided through the course of this thread, if you will read back. It is a discussion of how something is in a fictional setting, and the discussion no more insists that a soul exists in the real world than it does that functional warp drive does.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Where is the evidence for this thing you call a soul (... either in real life, or in the world of Star Trek)?