Some people really do think it's real, I think. I've seen dissertations on Spock's eyebrows.
(not really)
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Some people really do think it's real, I think. I've seen dissertations on Spock's eyebrows.
(not really)
*flees*
ST canon was only ever supposed to matter to the authors and editors preparing material to be included in licensed tie-in merchandise, such as original ST novels and comics. The whole point of Richard Arnold and Gene Roddenberry attempting to describe a "ST canon" in the 1980s was to stop obsessed fans at conventions demanding that the parent series and movies be informed by original plots, characters and tech (eg. dreadnoughts from Franz Joseph's Tech Manual) being put into the licensed tie-ins.
I've seen dissertations on Spock's eyebrows.
(not really)
I've written a few on the change of Saavik's eyebrows from ST II to ST III!
Well said!
Count me amongst your numbers. Canon has never mattered to me. All I want to do is sit down and be entertained for 2 hours (or 45 minutes for TV). I thought bringing in new blood was the best thing that could have happened to Star Trek. It had gotten so bloated and so weighed down by its canon and history that it needed a change. It needed people who were willing to come in, throw out whatever they felt like, and make a good movie rather than a movie that would fit perfectly into Trek lore.
Yes, but I was looking forward to posting the caption: "The needs of the many do NOT outweigh my need for cake..."
Back on topic, I do have a certain affinity for canon. But I also think they did a great job writing around it from this point forward. It works.
I am also one who thinks this alternate timeline was needed for dramatic reasons as well. How can they have any dramatic effect when we know what the futures of these characters are? Kirk CAN'T die because we already know his fate in the Prime Timeline. Now, all of it is out the window and anything goes. It's a brilliant way of both paying homage and rebooting the franchise, and I'm on board.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Funny thing is from what he tries to post here on the TrekBBS, I think Ricardohead may be one of those under 18s you're talking about!
Well for myself, I wanted the TWOK phaser effects. Not for any canon reason mind you, but just because they were the best laser/ray gun/blaster/phaser/turbolaser effects ive seen in any movie or show.
I also wanted TMP blue photons, but I think Im in a minority on that one.
Having said that, I of course wanted something with great dialog, a good story, interesting characters and good execution. I just wish I had gotten that with this movie.
It would have been better to just reboot and reimagine without reference to the original. No Nimoy or time-travel. Dont make it a reboot and fit with the continuity at the same time. Do one or the other. To wipe out Vulcan for no other reason than to make a point to fans seems like absurd overkill. Just say its a reboot with new continuity and you accomplish the same purpose. They said they didnt want to be constrained by the continuity. So throw it out. Period.
Yes it was a fun movie. But thats an odd thing to say about a movie with a genocide in it. Yeah, Yippie! 6 billion are dead, but look at the flashy-light, lens flare-y, gimzo, slam bam action! Ok. It was pretty slam bam. But...I dont know.
Lousy, put-up example because it doesn't happen.
The closest that Trek ever got to that kind of thing was messing with the makeup design on a couple of established races. Didn't matter a bit.
No, I don't give a flying fuck about canon. Sometimes when they change something it annoys me, but that's because the particular change happens to annoy me on its own merits. Doesn't happen often.
There's a few examples of canon in other fandoms where the last word you hear on the matter ends up taking precedent as the canon one (don't even get me started on the ages of Angel and Spike--which have 3 ages apiece--or Spike's sire, for example). In that fandom--which really isn't bad at canon, we just take the final word as the canon one (check out all the redesigns of the vampire ridges/makeup as an example of 'refining').
This can be seen most clearly in the change of design for the Klingons. In my view, the most prominent and well-known version basically takes prominence and the others just have to be imagined as having facial ridges. Same with the fact that Spock's ears change shape in all the different incarnations.
When dealing with canon, sometimes you just have to mentally revise an earlier line or appearance when canon is eventually and finally accepted and decided upon. And the people saying that recasting actors to play the same character is bad already have a precedent in Saavik changing actresses and appearance (eyebrow-revisement where the latter probably takes precedent).
You could even use this logic to turn Chekov saying he is 20 into actually being 24 instead (it still makes him the baby of the cast--and Koenig was still older than that). Some canon does get shaped over time. Or you can go with the alternate universe brother/his-parents-did-it-earlier explanation. Same with Pike being the same age as Kirk. Either AU-Pike is wheelchair-Pike's father, or Pike's always been a few decades older.
This can be seen most clearly in the change of design for the Klingons. In my view, the most prominent and well-known version basically takes prominence and the others just have to be imagined as having facial ridges. Same with the fact that Spock's ears change shape in all the different incarnations.
When dealing with canon, sometimes you just have to mentally revise an earlier line or appearance when canon is eventually and finally accepted and decided upon. And the people saying that recasting actors to play the same character is bad already have a precedent in Saavik changing actresses and appearance (eyebrow-revisement where the latter probably takes precedent).
You could even use this logic to turn Chekov saying he is 20 into actually being 24 instead (it still makes him the baby of the cast--and Koenig was still older than that). Some canon does get shaped over time. Or you can go with the alternate universe brother/his-parents-did-it-earlier explanation. Same with Pike being the same age as Kirk. Either AU-Pike is wheelchair-Pike's father, or Pike's always been a few decades older.
Or you can just say "the stories aren't consistent" and move on.
You're right, my example was a bit of hyperbole intended to emphasis the sort of major canon matters that I feel it is reasonable to expect the showrunners to keep straight. There are some more minor changes that we've seen to races - the addition of spots to the Trill is one example - but for the most part I'm happy to kinda "retcon" in my head and accept that sometimes some ideas need a little working through before they get to their final form.
A much better example is that if the crew of a distant, stranded starship discovers that they can go Transwarp and get home instantly but will have a severe side-effect that can nonetheless be reversed with apparent ease by the unaffected holodoc, well, THAT shouldn't be forgotten by the next episode, dammit!
Hmm...that would be like the aliens from Andromeda who fix a starship so that it can do warp 300, but it's totally forgotten about by the next episode. Or the starship that discovers spores that can restore any human being to perfect health, including regrowing their organs, but when the first officer of said ship wants to help his crippled former commander he decides that it's better to commit a death penalty offense rather than just exposing him to the SPORES THEY'VE FORGOTTEN ABOUT?
Yeah, those episodes suck.
A
Amaris
Guest
Well I have an appreciation for cannon that I've enjoyed up to Voy, more like DS9 really. But like most fans of sci-fi, you just have to set that aside when you deal with an alternate universe.
That's mostly why I never cared for time traveling/alternate/mirror universe episodes...but go figure 'Yesterday's Enterprise' is in my all time fav top 10.
After the recent drought of ST guess I'm a little more receptive and accommodating of cannon violations because I really liked Trek XI. And that 'verse is good enough for me...so lets drive on to Trek XII.
That's mostly why I never cared for time traveling/alternate/mirror universe episodes...but go figure 'Yesterday's Enterprise' is in my all time fav top 10.
After the recent drought of ST guess I'm a little more receptive and accommodating of cannon violations because I really liked Trek XI. And that 'verse is good enough for me...so lets drive on to Trek XII.
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Lord Garth
Guest
Back in the days of ENT, people said it didn't matter if canon was violated so long as the story was done well. I'm not here to argue that it wasn't canon because that's not my point. I didn't think it was done well. I said I was willing to overlook a lot if series or movie was to my liking and now I know I meant it because my stance was put to the test with ST XI.
ST XI diverged from canon and I actually thought it was good. So, ST XI proves to me that no, I really don't care about canon, so long as I'm satisfied with the writing. I feel vindicated.
Given that it's an alternate timeline, the whole issue of canon is a moot point anyway. If it were up to me, I would've done a hard-reboot, ala Battlestar Galactica or Batman Begins (one that has nothing to do with what came before) instead of a soft-reboot where there is still a connection. BUT I like how the soft-rebooting of the timeline was made critical to the movie's plot and I thought it was a creative way to restart the movies, so points for originality. I've never seen a reboot done in this manner before.
To the side and regarding the TNG movies: there was a question of whether or not those who criticised them were criticising them because they didn't like anything new or because there were legitmate problems with the series which was going nowhere fast. ST XI proves that we actually really didn't like the TNG movies because there were legitimate problems with them. Again, I feel vindicated.
ST XI diverged from canon and I actually thought it was good. So, ST XI proves to me that no, I really don't care about canon, so long as I'm satisfied with the writing. I feel vindicated.
Given that it's an alternate timeline, the whole issue of canon is a moot point anyway. If it were up to me, I would've done a hard-reboot, ala Battlestar Galactica or Batman Begins (one that has nothing to do with what came before) instead of a soft-reboot where there is still a connection. BUT I like how the soft-rebooting of the timeline was made critical to the movie's plot and I thought it was a creative way to restart the movies, so points for originality. I've never seen a reboot done in this manner before.
To the side and regarding the TNG movies: there was a question of whether or not those who criticised them were criticising them because they didn't like anything new or because there were legitmate problems with the series which was going nowhere fast. ST XI proves that we actually really didn't like the TNG movies because there were legitimate problems with them. Again, I feel vindicated.
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Lord Garth
Guest
^ What an idiot. As a person and a trekkie.
First because of the Academy thing all by itself, second: why enroll in something that supposedly wouldn't be established until 2161?
First because of the Academy thing all by itself, second: why enroll in something that supposedly wouldn't be established until 2161?
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