A question on the Pike era uniforms

[gastrof]

This afternoon I was watching THE CAGE again, and noticed that on the jackets, the metallic stripes on the sleeves seemed to be silver, not gold.

I'm not sure if the same can be said of the stripes on the actual uniform shirt sleeves, or the badges on the chest.

Were they silver? Not gold, like during the Kirk era?

 

[Timo]

Not only were they silver on those jackets, IIRC they were applied separately, like rubber bands; they weren't sewn in because the jacket material was so difficult to work with...

One wonders if the jacket stripes were supposed to be related to rank at all. I mean, Roddenberry apparently had some weird ideas about the rank structure (or lack thereof) back when the pilot was filmed, ideas that didn't carry over to the regular TOS episodes. In retrospect, we might wish to assign a more conventional rank structure to "The Cage" because we had one in TOS and in the backstory of TOS, and now also in the "preceding" ENT. So perhaps the jacket stripes could be interpreted as purely decorative - perhaps with the actual rank markers applied onto them, in the form of pips or transverse stripes or whatnot. That's how it went with the jackets and stripes of the TOS movies 2-6.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

There's an interpretation of the rank stripes out there that seems to make some sort of sense, but it's not an easy one (it basically involves viewing the stripes as denoting junior and senior officers, and not so clear on the actual service grade), but the way I read it, Pike's actual rank would appear to have been Commander (only one broad stripe) at the time of "The Cage", while Kirk was a full Captain (two stripes) at the time of "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Oh, and the uniform stripes and insignia were gold. The ones on the jackets were silver (probably something to do with how well they looked on the gray material).

 

[TIN_MAN]

There's an interpretation of the rank stripes out there that seems to make some sort of sense, but it's not an easy one (it basically involves viewing the stripes as denoting junior and senior officers, and not so clear on the actual service grade), but the way I read it, Pike's actual rank would appear to have been Commander (only one broad stripe) at the time of "The Cage", while Kirk was a full Captain (two stripes) at the time of "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

Oh, and the uniform stripes and insignia were gold. The ones on the jackets were silver (probably something to do with how well they looked on the gray material).

This fits with my theory that, in this era, the ship was "just" a cruiser and was "allowed" to be cammanded by officers below captains rank, although, in all cases, the CO would still be called "Captain" since he (or she) is the skipper?

 

[Praetor]

An interesting thought. Perhaps, by Trek's time, the 'weight' of cruisers primarily has to do with the number of people aboard, and the increase from 203 to 430 was worthy of upgrade from a Cruiser to a Heavy Cruiser?

 

[Timo]

Might be; say, in WWII, the decisive difference between light and heavy cruisers wasn't displacement, but whether the guns were 6in or 8in.

Then again, the same ship could probably flexibly perform a variety of assignments. Some might call for a crew of 200 commanded by a lowly Lt.Cmdr, some for a crew of 500 commanded by a Commodore. The ship would always be a heavy cruiser, by virtue of size or onboard equipment or whatnot, but the personnel requirements would be far more flexible than in ships of today or yesterday.

Since ENT now supports the idea that Starfleet of 2150 had the same rank system as Starfleet of 2260, I'm not really fond of accepting that the systems in "The Cage" or "Where No Man" were different. There's nothing problematic about having Kirk hold the rank of Commander in his pilot appearance, as his sleeve would indicate. There's the minor problem of Gary Mitchell wearing a single stripe while he's considered a (Lieutenant) Commander, but perhaps he was as sloppy with dressing as he was with other formalities... Everybody else in that episode could perfectly well be a Lieutenant by rank, as the sleeves would indicate.

As for "The Cage", everybody else but Pike could again be a Lieutenant. Indeed, Number One is specifically called that, establishing for good the concept that the ship's second-highest-ranking officer need not be a LtCmdr, let alone a Cmdr.

Whether Pike himself could be a Lieutenant in that episode... Well, if he's really (roughly) the same age as Kirk, then that's more or less a given; he couldn't plausibly hold a higher rank. But the writer intent in "The Menagerie" seemed to be that Pike had been the same age as Kirk, back when he was a starship captain like Kirk was now - and that now everything had changed.

A Lieutenant in charge of 200 people? Well, why not? Even 200 seemed to be quite a burden for Chris Pike. His mission sounded like a milk run gone bad; perhaps this was more or less his inaugural command. At least the backstory in "The Menagerie" would suggest that this was the first year Spock was aboard - but the backstory would also allow for this to be Pike's first mission as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Why not simply accept that those stripes bore pins not viewable at television resolution () with 2150s style pips, or pins/badges that matched the stripes (like those in TMP)?

These pins continued then through 'WNMHGB' (where a second stripe was added to the Captain for distinction) and by 2265 the scheme switched to stripes without pips, switching back to stripes with pins before dropping the stripes entirely? Indeed, if the Kirk era post-'WNMHGB' had field jackets, perhaps the field jackets would have still had matching pips?

 

[Timo]

I'm all go for interpreting "The Cage" that way. However, the uniforms from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" see further service in TOS, being worn both by Enterprise personnel and, most importantly, by the two top officers of the Antares.

Now, if the scheme for the second pilot was different from the regular TOS scheme, it would be extremely confusing to continue wearing the two styles simultaneously in the same organization. A Captain with the old uniform would look like a Commander to anybody accustomed to the new scheme - a great source of confusion in "Charlie X". However, if two stripes in both uniform styles denoted Commander, then we'd avoid confusion and we'd get some interesting story logic. The skipper of the lesser vessel Antares would have lower rank. But so would the rookie captain Kirk on his first major assignment...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

Why do the "The Cage" rank structure have to be the same as the rank structure in WNMHGB. Since we don't know how much time passed between the episodes perhaps the WNMHGB rank sturcture was beginig to transition into the more detail version in the regular series.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, all other incarnations of Trek, before and after "The Cage", have followed more or less the same system of rank markings (regardless of whether the markings have been cuff stripes or pips) - save for the era between ST2:TWoK and the "Yesterday's Enterprise" flashback.

Should "The Cage" represent an age similar to the TWoK/"YE" interlude? Or should it be "integrated" to the continuity of the other cuff-marking eras? Both approaches are possible, considering that so little was seen in "The Cage".

Transitions are iffy: they cause undue confusion, and while a real-world military organization might opt to choose through such confusion, the somewhat idealized Starfleet probably would not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

I'm all go for interpreting "The Cage" that way. However, the uniforms from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" see further service in TOS, being worn both by Enterprise personnel and, most importantly, by the two top officers of the Antares.

Now, if the scheme for the second pilot was different from the regular TOS scheme, it would be extremely confusing to continue wearing the two styles simultaneously in the same organization. A Captain with the old uniform would look like a Commander to anybody accustomed to the new scheme - a great source of confusion in "Charlie X". However, if two stripes in both uniform styles denoted Commander, then we'd avoid confusion and we'd get some interesting story logic. The skipper of the lesser vessel Antares would have lower rank. But so would the rookie captain Kirk on his first major assignment...

Timo Saloniemi

I see your point. I'd be happy, then, to assume that the system in 'The Cage' works with small pins not visible at TV resolution, and that by 'WNMHGB' they'd adopted the new, 'series' stripe system.

 

[Gary7]

Why do the "The Cage" rank structure have to be the same as the rank structure in WNMHGB. Since we don't know how much time passed between the episodes perhaps the WNMHGB rank sturcture was beginig to transition into the more detail version in the regular series.

I agree with your take on it. Given the perspective, the fact that they were working on something as a Pilot with no clue on how big this whole thing would become, Gene and crew didn't bother to spend time on this level of detail. Once they got around to a second pilot, Gene must have known that this was rather unprecedented and that there was a very good chance the series would be picked up. And so, at that point they established a more definitive rank insignia structure that eventually carried forth through all seasons of the series, save some minor alterations.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I played with the silver and gold idea when trying to flesh out the Cage/WNMHGB system for a website. The enlisted ranks are pulled out of my butt with some help from DS9. So by my ranks Pike was a Lt. Commander. While Kirk was either a Commander or a Captain.

 

[J.T.B.]

There's the minor problem of Gary Mitchell wearing a single stripe while he's considered a (Lieutenant) Commander, but perhaps he was as sloppy with dressing as he was with other formalities...

That's a major problem. People don't get promotions and then continue to wear the insignia of the lower rank, that's just not believable. Besides it would not be regulation and Kirk doesn't seem the type to put up with that kind of sloppiness.

Everybody else in that episode could perfectly well be a Lieutenant by rank, as the sleeves would indicate.

It is very hard for me to believe that someone of Mitchell's age was a lieutenant commander, while a trained physician of Piper's years is only a lieutenant. In the r/w O-4 is more the standard rank for a medical doctor, which is more in tune with what we saw with LCdr/Cdr McCoy and the Exeter's surgeon who was a full commander.

I still have to believe that Starfleet in the time of "The Cage" and WNMHGB had a less-defined system of insignia, at least for duty uniforms. The Antares crew could have followed the new TOS system, but using the older-style, straight-edged stripes. So Ramart would be a commander and Nellis a lieutenant.

--Justin