Why not keep it simple -- q'naya?
A question on Klingon names
- Thread starter Enterprise1701
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This includes an illegal consonant cluster, q'n. In general, a syllable can never begin on a consonant cluster.
Also, ending on a vowel does work, but it's quite uncommon, and it makes the names sort of trail off, rather than end abruptly, which is how I read the "English" spelling.
^Even though we don't write it out, don't we still have the schwa vowel after the first consonant? So even though Klingon doesn't have a schwa, shouldn't it at least be like "qa'naya"?
While I'm assuming a Klingon trying to pronounce it would put a schwa there, I believe the pronunciation is sort of undefined, since it doesn't conform to Klingon spelling conventions.
I don't believe the syllable structure if Klingon have ever been made explicit, but based on the (Okrandian) canon, the following rules seem to be quite cleae:
The first letter of a tlhIngan Hol word (names included) always one of the 21 consonants:
b, ch, D, gh, H, j, l, m, n, ng, p, q, Q, r, S, t, tlh, v, w, y or '
(Note that this list includes three digraphs (ch, ng and gh) and one trigraph (tlh). Though they consist of multiple letters in romanized Klingon, each of these consonants is treated as a single letter in Klingon.)
The second letter is always one of the five vowels:
a, e, I, o or u
There are a handful of two-letter words, but usually the syllable will end with yet another consonant. tlhIngan Hol does not allow vowel clusters.
There are also three* known consonant clusters that may appear at the end (but not the beginning) of a syllable: -rgh, -w' and -y'
Other than these three* special consonant cluster endings, a single syllable may not contain any consonant clusters.
== For example: ==
vetlh (cockroach) is OK, as it's just CVC (consonant-vowel-consonant); the most common form for a Klingon word stem.
Ha'DIbaH (animal) breaks down as Ha'-DI-baH, or CVC-CV-CVC, which is fine.
vay'vaD (for somebody) breaks down as vay'-vaD, or CVCC-CVC.
The first syllable contains a consonant cluster, but it's fine, since it's one of the three* permitted clusters.
buStaH (she/he/it/they is/are focusing) breaks down as buS-taH, or CVC-CVC.
It sort of contains a consonant cluster, St, but it's OK because the two consonants are not part of the same syllable.
Sto'vo'qor would no be permitted, since the first syllable contains the forbidden consonant cluster St.
In romanized tlhIngan Hol, "Sto-Vo-Kor" is instead written Suto'vo'qor, which breaks down as Su-to'-vo'-qor, or CV-CVC-CVC-CVC.
*It appears that Klingon may make certain exceptions for alien names. For example, "James T. Kirk" is written jemS tIy qIrq (note the normally forbidden -mS and -rq endings) and Jean-Luc Picsrd is written janluq pIqarD.
However, even then, these still seem to be quite uncommon. For example, "Robert" is translated as rabe'rIt (CV-CVC-CVC), "Dorn" is translated as Do'rIn, and "Gwynyth Walsh" is translated as ghuwI'nItlh wa'lIS (CV-CVC-CVC CVC-CVC).
Umm, where? What's the source for those?
janluq pIqarD is from a SkyBox card (S25 — Klingon Great Hall):
http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Non-Sport/84653/84653-6390473Bk.jpg
rabe'rIt, Do'rIn and ghuwI'nItlh wa'lIS are from Star Trek Commincator #104
http://imgur.com/si0tfSl
(Note that it also contains the spelling kalI'qoS for "Colicos", which I'm assuming was a mistake; it should probably be qalI'qoS.)
jemS tIy qIrq is spoken by Klaa in Star Trek V. The spelling was published in HolQeD (the Klingon Language Institute's quarterly journal); according to the author, this was the way Marc Okrand had written it.
Still not exactly sure about K'naiah, but the glossary in A Burning House gives Sto-Vo-Kor as suto'vo'qor. So I would think that native Klingon words would have Klingon vowels in place of what we spell as schwas and consonant clusters.
How is "Worf" transliterated from Klingon?
Interesting question, since Okrandian Klingonese doesn't have an "f" sound -- although it does have a "v" sound. I guess the closest thing would be either "worv" or "worH."
I think with Klingon names that don't fit the Okrandian phonetics, you kind of have to assume they're from a different Klingon dialect or language.
^ I *think* I remember reading somewhere it was worIv.
I know, a source would probably be awesome. Sorry, I don't remember...
I know, a source would probably be awesome. Sorry, I don't remember...
You're close; it's wo'rIv (see for example SkyBox card S20)^ I *think* I remember reading somewhere it was worIv.
I know, a source would probably be awesome. Sorry, I don't remember...
Another example of interest to this discussion is Grilka: ghIrIlqa' (source: Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, page 41)
I think your deduction is very much correct.
The spelling Suto'vo'qor also appeared in the glossary to KRADeC's Diplomatic Implausibility, which was vetted with Marc Okrand.
I think there's definitely something to that, and also throw accents into the pot. With that being said, though, I can definitely buy "Worf" just being an anglified (or "federationized"?) version of wo'rIv, just as "Klingon" is an anglified version of tlhIngan. I use very different pronunciations of my own name depending on what language I'm speaking (because it's hard to switch accents mid-sentence), and people moving to and from China are used to picking new names that make sense in the target language (Lǔi Shī? You are now Luigi. Felix? You are now Fēi Líng.)
It still boggles my mind that someone back in 1987 thought that "Worf" was a good name for a Klingon. It doesn't begin with K, which almost every Klingon name did at the time (save Mara, Torg, and Maltz, I believe). It doesn't have any strong consonants in it at all. It doesn't sound the least bit warriorish or intimidating, unless you're frightened by the docking of boats. It sounds more like the name of a cute dwarflike creature from a cartoon.
Okay, I guess it does sound like the first half or so of "warfare," but that doesn't really change my opinion much.
Okay, I guess it does sound like the first half or so of "warfare," but that doesn't really change my opinion much.
Yeah, we're used to it now, but it does have some rather cartoonish qualities to it. When Lwaxana Troi calls him "Mr. Woof", one can't help but imagine that that was their first choice.
Also, "Mogh", which rhymes with "vogue", doesn't feel very Klingon. Give me Duras any day; now there's a name I love to say!
Du-rassss! Du-raaaaaaas!
In my "head-canon", I like to imagine that wo'rIv means "champion of the empire" (in either contemporary or archaic tlhIngan Hol). This is pure, unabashed speculation, of course, but it's based on the fact that the first syllable, wo', means "empire", and the second syllable, rIv, also appears in the word rIvSo', meaning "embassy".
Haha. Changing accents? I can't resist doing that even though I hate doing it. For example I habitually pronounce English-language trademarks with schwas in my American accent when I try to speak Spanish. According to what I've heard, native Spanish speakers (at least ones who don't have longstanding expertise in English) can't pronounce sound like schwas in English-language trademarks.
I disagree. I've never thought of "Mogh" as un-Klingon. And I don't generally think of English pronunciation with the "yoo" sound (i.e. Q) as tough-sounding. I guess there must be an Okrand-devised transliteration for Duras, but I've always thought it in my head as like "Dhoo-RRahs".