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A question about the Botany Bay.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the number of World War I/II deaths Spock cites were thought to be historically acceptable values in the mid-60s as well. My understanding is De Forest Research checked the content of the scripts, the world war casualty numbers seem like they would have been easy to look up and trivial to correct if they were found to be in error.
I'm less knowledgeable concerning WWI numbers, but death numbers for WWII have certainly been revised significantly upward since the time Star Trek originally aired. Comparing statistics accepted today to those cited in an episode written in 1966-67, I'd be very surprised if there weren't a glaring discrepancy.
 
It's really weird now when such dates are quoted! Those dates are now long ago (1993-96) Even the spaceflight mention of 2018 is now in our recent past and we failed to reach that technology! Watching this today we must sort of close one eye when listening!
JB
Just means Trek happened in a timeline not entirely the same as ours. Of course Rain Robinson did not appear to be too terribly affected by the recently ended Eugenics Wars, but maybe she was in an area not as affected.

The last time I was in Indiana, I didn't see the Millenium Gate.
 
I always disliked the idea put forth by some that the Eugenics Wars were something that took place largely out of sight and away from Western nations such as the U.S. That just boggles the mind that a conflict of that scale could go largely unnoticed. I believe thas similar to what VOY did when they touched on the subject.

Utter BS in my view.

This sounds odd. The world is constantly at war, including wars where the ruling of a quarter of the population is at stake. When this happened in 1971, say, the world at large barely noticed, and you didn't need to go further West from India and Pakistan than, oh, Finland to find both the population and the leadership basically oblivious to the fighting going on.

We learn nothing of the "scale" of the Eugenics War(s), really. Khan was in the game of avoiding massacres, so obviously not in the business of waging devastating wars. If he fought, the scale may have been minimal - possibly even a series of Boss Fights between the Augments in charge of their respective realms. That billions of lives were involved need not mean they would have been at risk of getting hurt much. And whole populations being bombed out of existence was pretty much standard in the real seventies anyway, but it was definitely out of sight: you needed to paint placards and take them to the streets in order to give it any sort of visibility.

We already have to accept that Spock was dead wrong about the Eugenics War(s) being the last World War. We may trivially accept that it was in no way comparable in scope to WWI, WWII or WWIII, either, then. All the more so since Spock himself considers it too trivial to be mentioned in company of those three when listing mankind's sins in "Bread and Circuses"! Perhaps he managed to educate himself on proper human terminology between the episodes and no longer made brain farts about World Wars. (But quite possibly he overstudied, and thus quoted casualties of an extremely specific nature, exactly as the stated; native humanfolk wouldn't be able to separate those dead from "slavery, gladiatorial games and despotism" from the rest!)

Timo Saloniemi
 
@Warped9

About your commment on Khan being exiled into space, I think I'm stating the obvious here but just in case:

I wouldn't think it's a coincidence that the name the writer(s) of "Space Seed" gave the DY-100 ship, the Botany Bay, is where the British established a penal colony in Australia in the 18th century, that is they exiled their criminals there.

Whether they meant it to mean Khan and his people were exiled into space by the athorities I don't know, it could also mean Khan exiled himself into space and he gave the ship the ironic name of "Botany Bay".

Robert
 
Whoever named the ship had a sense of irony whether Khan and his followers were exiled or they exiled themselves.
 
Whoever named the ship had a sense of irony whether Khan and his followers were exiled or they exiled themselves.
Themselves...

KIRK: Botany Bay. That was the name of a penal colony on shores of Australia, wasn't it? If they took that name for their vessel...
SPOCK: If you're suggesting this was a penal deportation vessel, you've arrived at a totally illogical conclusion.
KIRK: Oh?
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.
 
...Weird was probably Khan's business, too. When he wakes up, he's not slow on the uptake, but his first and only question certainly tickles the imagination. Why ask "How long?", is the key question here. Why would Khan care?

- We can't tell if he's surprised at having been asleep as a thing. Perhaps an enemy or an ally put him there while he was already down for the count? But perhaps he went to the cryochamber aware of what was happening, even if forced to do so at gunpoint.

- We can't tell if he's surprised at finding himself in the middle of fellow humans. He "admits" to being unsure on whether he really heard English spoken; if this is not a deliberate lie, perhaps he actually expected to be surrounded by his allies or enemies who would not be speaking English. But perhaps he expected to wake up in the middle of space aliens, having aimed his ship (or having it aimed by his enemies) at empty space, or even at a known alien asset he was in secret communications with.

- We can't tell if he expected to sleep for 200 years, or less, or more. Perhaps he was only sailing for Ganymede, to storm the outpost there and turn it into his fortress for retaking Earth. Or perhaps he intended to make it to a nearby star system where there was a known Class M planet he could pitch his tent on (ENT would have us think that the closest one found acceptable at the time was more than 20 ly away, but that may refer to planets free for human colonization; Khan might have aimed at a Tellarite mining world closer to Earth, being either aware or unaware of the ownership issues). Probably he wasn't counting on much more than 200 years, considering his equipment was failing him (unless he had sabotaged key chambers in order to kill his competitors).

Really, Khan remains a man of mystery to us, and so does his exodus. "How long?" would be pertinent if there was no destination - if Khan's only aim was to put distance between himself and Earth. But that aim could serve greater plans, too: if enough distance and time passed, Khan could count on people forgetting him, and thus perhaps falling prey to his damsel-in-distress act.

Other devious plots can be postulated, too. And we sorta need to postulate here, because the writers already fumbled on a few key issues within the inaugural episode. How can Khan go unaccounted for so that only Spock's personal tin-hat research suggests he might be missing, when he's revealed in the history books to be the boss of the bosses, and the last superman standing, and all? This is a genuine plot hole, although not one in much need of filling as long as we accept that Khan is an enigma to everybody in-universe. Quite possibly there is an explanation, one intimately related to the exact way Khan made good his escape. And it's not the business of our heroes here to worry about such things, nor the business of Khan to explain himself.

It's just for the better that no definite explanation has been offered yet... But if one ever emerges, it can involve elements out of the left field. And should, since our TOS heroes researched what was known of Khan: any new revelations should be mysteries to the 23rd century mankind. Such as those made in ST:ID, where Khan is said to have been created for peacekeeping and condemned as a war criminal, and having genocidal leanings. Those things weren't in the history books for the heroes to check, but it's a reasonable assumption that history books would be in error (indeed, "Space Seed" already rides on that premise, with only Spock believing that eighty Augments might have gone missing).

Timo Saloniemi
 
We can count on Khan lying to make himself look good. He was certainly evasive until Kirk and Spock pressured him into proclaiming aloud, “We offered the world order!”

And later Khan’s intentions are affirmed when he takes over the Enterprise with an the intent in finding a world to rule. Without knowing the Botany Bay’s speed it’s largely guesswork to know how far the ship got from Earth. If it managed .5c then it’s possibly within 130 or so light years from Earth. If faster then a bit farther and if slower then nearer to Earth. Perhaps it was also on a course and in a general area (out of chance) not frequented by future traffic that allowed for the ship not to be noticed until the Enterprise came across it. In James Blish’s adaptation it’s mentioned the ship appeared bound for Tau Ceti, but there is no mention of a possible destination in the episode. And if the ship had been damaged or malfunctioned in flight somehow then its original course could also have been altered.

I think it’s safe to assume that in TOS’ reality even with its much more advanced spaceflight capability than we had in the 1990s the knowledge of what lay beyond the solar system could likely still be sketchy. In our reality we’ve been finding extrasolar planets around other stars for about twenty five years or so and TOS’ reality mightn’t be much different or much more informed. Given that where could Khan had been aiming for?

I like the idea put forth upthread that Khan might have intended to reach only the outer solar system, but something went wrong, either by accident or by design/sabotage. He seemed genuinely surprised to have slept for at least two centuries. Then again we are to believe he never expected to hear English again (at least outside of his own group) so perhaps he had no long term intent on returning to Earth. In the turn of the century era deep space flight might generally be assumed to be a one-way trip. A lot is also dependent on how fast a DY-100 series can go and how far the target. I can’t see it going faster than .5c and maybe not even that. So that makes even the nearest stars most likely one-way trips. Khan possibly expected to sleep in terms of decades rather than centuries.

None of these questions need to be answered to make sense of “Space Seed,” but it’s interesting trying to fill in the background.
 
Whether they meant it to mean Khan and his people were exiled into space by the athorities I don't know, it could also mean Khan exiled himself into space and he gave the ship the ironic name of "Botany Bay".
I had always thought Khan named the ship and exiled himself, which is why Spock couldn't find any records of a Botany Bay.
 
And we sorta need to postulate here, because the writers already fumbled on a few key issues within the inaugural episode.

I see your overall point, and it has me wishing that if they were going to bother re-doing Khan that they would have explored the answers to these questions more that than making so much of this movie be derived from previous information.

In James Blish’s adaptation it’s mentioned the ship appeared bound for Tau Ceti,

I can’t see it going faster than .5c and maybe not even that.

Tau Ceti makes sense since they were apparently near Alpha Ceti in "Space Seed," and Omicron Ceti in another nearby episode, and I believe Tau Ceti is a real star close to Earth.

Assuming that the DY-100 uses some kind of propulsion that either exists now, like rockets, or is (well-developed) theoretical now, then I believe I recall there is some kind of speed threshold without the future tech of a something like what Star Trek calls a "field drive" that can lower the overall mass of the vessel. That is, you can only go so fast unless you have what many fans think Impulse Power does, to generate a field that allows the ship to go to high sublight speeds.

The reason I mention this is that perhaps someone on this forum will know what that speed threshold is and can share. Then we can speculate that if the DY-100 did not have Impulse ability, we could know how far it could have traveled. Maybe the DY-500 had this ability and that is the difference?

Suppose that the threshold it was .5c for example, then the post above give a range and set of planets that could be involved. But if it was .25c or .75 c, then that would raise new ideas.

And, everything I just said could be further explored by dealing with whether or not the DY-500 had a finite fuel supply.
 
I had always thought Khan named the ship and exiled himself, which is why Spock couldn't find any records of a Botany Bay.
That seems a reasonable enough assumption to make. If he and the other "supermen" had taken power by force and ruled as tyrants, they would also be well aware of the possibility that power could eventually be seized from them, and would keep in reserve a means of escape in the event that things went sideways. Why not one of the most advanced spacecraft then available?
 
Themselves...

KIRK: Botany Bay. That was the name of a penal colony on shores of Australia, wasn't it? If they took that name for their vessel...
SPOCK: If you're suggesting this was a penal deportation vessel, you've arrived at a totally illogical conclusion.
KIRK: Oh?
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

Ouch! Boy was my previous post unnecessary, I totally forgot they directly referred to the penal colony in the episode. I see now that it was Khan who exiled himself.

Thanks for posting this.

Robert
 
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