What you're describing is a completely different character than Spock. Spock was called the best first officer in the fleet for a reason.
A question about the Botany Bay.
- Thread starter Tenacity
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Exactly.
To be fair a first officer would need to do other things besides give accurate information. That said Spock was also the ship’s Science Officer, so he was overseeing and coordinating the different science departments aboard (of which each likely had a department head) as well as making certain Kirk’s orders were implemented.
Science Officer and First Officer are each demanding positions. For Spock to be able to do both at least competently would make him an exceptional individual. And despite him claiming not to understand certain human characteristics he would have had to know how to manage a diversity of human personalities to keep things running smoothly as well as efficiently.
What we saw happen in “The Galileo Seven” where Boma was openly insubordinate to Spock while Scotty kept his cool (and the rest ranged in the middle) could have been an example of different people handle elevated stress. Boma felt compelled to openly vent his anxiety which he directed at Spock. Under normal circumstances aboard ship Boma might have never given Spock any grief. Or perhaps Boma rarely if ever had to report to Spock directly and he was unprepared for it particularly when thrown into a stressful situation.
We saw a prior example of Boma’s kind of insubordinate behaviour with Styles in “Balance Of Terror.” Styles went quickly on the offensive the moment he saw what the Romulans looked like then he did a very racist thing and assumed that just because Spock resembled the Romulans then he must likely be like them. He instantly dismissed Spock as an individual and reduced him to a biased generalization.
Now to be fair Boma might not have done what Styles did. Boma might have had a problem with Spock specifically rather than with Vulcans in general. However, one wonders that despite Starfleet being in existence for quite some time different species working closely alongside together could be a relatively new practice in the TOS era.
But back to my point that Spock would have to know how to manage a diversity of personalities to avoid recurring situations like we saw with Styles and Boma. Of course, the crew also have to be sufficiently professional to not allow their personal feelings to interfere with their responsibilities. You don’t have to like your superior, but you have to respect their position and authority and be able to follow their orders without publicly bitching about it.
Science Officer and First Officer are each demanding positions. For Spock to be able to do both at least competently would make him an exceptional individual. And despite him claiming not to understand certain human characteristics he would have had to know how to manage a diversity of human personalities to keep things running smoothly as well as efficiently.
What we saw happen in “The Galileo Seven” where Boma was openly insubordinate to Spock while Scotty kept his cool (and the rest ranged in the middle) could have been an example of different people handle elevated stress. Boma felt compelled to openly vent his anxiety which he directed at Spock. Under normal circumstances aboard ship Boma might have never given Spock any grief. Or perhaps Boma rarely if ever had to report to Spock directly and he was unprepared for it particularly when thrown into a stressful situation.
We saw a prior example of Boma’s kind of insubordinate behaviour with Styles in “Balance Of Terror.” Styles went quickly on the offensive the moment he saw what the Romulans looked like then he did a very racist thing and assumed that just because Spock resembled the Romulans then he must likely be like them. He instantly dismissed Spock as an individual and reduced him to a biased generalization.
Now to be fair Boma might not have done what Styles did. Boma might have had a problem with Spock specifically rather than with Vulcans in general. However, one wonders that despite Starfleet being in existence for quite some time different species working closely alongside together could be a relatively new practice in the TOS era.
But back to my point that Spock would have to know how to manage a diversity of personalities to avoid recurring situations like we saw with Styles and Boma. Of course, the crew also have to be sufficiently professional to not allow their personal feelings to interfere with their responsibilities. You don’t have to like your superior, but you have to respect their position and authority and be able to follow their orders without publicly bitching about it.
It has nothing to do with me. It's about you making an argument based on a false premise which you refuse to accept.
And again I'm saying you're wrong. In the context of the episode, Spock was clearly correct in his numbers. The only evidence you put forth is that Riker's numbers for (the fictional) WWIII are higher than Spock's, and therefore you assume that Spock was wrong. I've already explained the concept of a retcon to you, which you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge, so then let's debate in an in-universe perspective: What if Riker is the one that's wrong? Can you prove Riker is right and Spock is wrong about numbers of dead people in a fictional war? Or, what if the information about the war changed between the time of TOS and TNG? Perhaps info was uncovered between that time that showed a much higher death count? That still wouldn't make Spock wrong; it would just show that he was going by the information he had at the time, and since no one corrected him, then everyone else believed that inaccurate information too, so you couldn't single Spock out as not knowing what he's talking about.
And, in-universe, Spock is clearly more intelligent than Riker. If I needed info about a historical event, guess which of those two I would ask first.
Best first officer in the fleet ≠ historian.
You obviously have no intention of listening to reason, so I think this silly argument of yours has become pointless. Go ahead and think Spock doesn't know anything about history. But you're not convincing anyone.
Oh, and I'm still waiting for that proof that Riker was right and Spock was wrong.
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My opinion on this is likely to prove unpopular, but for some time I have found myself considering the idea that much about the history of Space Seed is correct in-universe but that the years were wrong. Somewhere on this forum I read a fan present the idea that we could suppose that Khan is really from something like 70 years later, during the time shown in Q's courtroom. According to him/her, TOS was 200 years after Khan, in 2196, and if TOS is really in 2266, then some dates need to be moved forward to match. This brings the DY-100 and DY-500 closer to the time that DY-500's were mentioned to be in use in TNG, and also lets the supermen of the Eugenics Wars be born in the 1990's to now, instead of suggesting that work on creating them was already being done in the 1960's.
It also makes "Future's End," fit since the Eugenics Wars were not mentioned at that time, but since that episode deals with time travel that could result in an altered history, I'm not overly concerned with making sure everything about the 1996 shown in that episode matches with TOS.
I don't fully support altering dates given in TOS, but
Here’s the thing—the fact they mentioned specific dates in “Space Seed,” 1993-1996. and they mention the Botany Bay being in flight for two centuries.
When someone says, “Two centuries we estimate.” that gives you some wriggle room. Two centuries as a generalization could be anything from 150-250 years. If Kahn took off exactly in 1996, and not later by a few years (which is entirely possible), that means the events of “Space Seed” happened somewhere between 2146 and 2246. 2246 is the mid 23rd century (right where we generally accept TOS to be set. If we put “Space Seed” in the 2260s then we’re only twenty years off an estimation of two centuries.
We’re told Khan ruled until 1996, but that doesn’t mean the Botany Bay launched in 1996. Indeed Spock asserts there is no record of the ship’s launch. Or at least there is no official or surviving record of the ship’s launch. So the Botany Bay could have been launched some years after 1996 and even into the early 21st century.
A big question left unanswered in “Space Seed” and TWOK for that matter. Khan and his fellow supermen were defeated and overthrown, and we can presume some of them might even have been killed. Khan is obviously one of the survivors of their defeat. But was Khan on the run after his defeat or was he captured. If he was on the run and evaded capture then at some point he and his group managed to provision and steal a spaceship to escape Earth.
But what if it didn’t happen that way? What if Khan and his group had been captured? Seventy some odd very dangerous supermen (and women) are now in custody—what do the authorities do with them? Do they have the means and facilities secure enough to imprison them indefinitely? Do they have the stomach to execute all of them?
Or do they come up with the idea of permanently exiling them? Launch them into deep space out of the solar system toward a target star wherein such an untried extended voyage has very long odds of succeeding? And keep it from public knowledge?
Khan never offers up anything about what happened when he and the other supermen were defeated. He lets everyone assume that they engineered a daring and audacious escape. But what if they had actually been beat much like Kirk and crew beat them again?
And then the damned irony of exiling Khan a second time this time on Ceti Alpha 5.
When someone says, “Two centuries we estimate.” that gives you some wriggle room. Two centuries as a generalization could be anything from 150-250 years. If Kahn took off exactly in 1996, and not later by a few years (which is entirely possible), that means the events of “Space Seed” happened somewhere between 2146 and 2246. 2246 is the mid 23rd century (right where we generally accept TOS to be set. If we put “Space Seed” in the 2260s then we’re only twenty years off an estimation of two centuries.
We’re told Khan ruled until 1996, but that doesn’t mean the Botany Bay launched in 1996. Indeed Spock asserts there is no record of the ship’s launch. Or at least there is no official or surviving record of the ship’s launch. So the Botany Bay could have been launched some years after 1996 and even into the early 21st century.
A big question left unanswered in “Space Seed” and TWOK for that matter. Khan and his fellow supermen were defeated and overthrown, and we can presume some of them might even have been killed. Khan is obviously one of the survivors of their defeat. But was Khan on the run after his defeat or was he captured. If he was on the run and evaded capture then at some point he and his group managed to provision and steal a spaceship to escape Earth.
But what if it didn’t happen that way? What if Khan and his group had been captured? Seventy some odd very dangerous supermen (and women) are now in custody—what do the authorities do with them? Do they have the means and facilities secure enough to imprison them indefinitely? Do they have the stomach to execute all of them?
Or do they come up with the idea of permanently exiling them? Launch them into deep space out of the solar system toward a target star wherein such an untried extended voyage has very long odds of succeeding? And keep it from public knowledge?
Khan never offers up anything about what happened when he and the other supermen were defeated. He lets everyone assume that they engineered a daring and audacious escape. But what if they had actually been beat much like Kirk and crew beat them again?
And then the damned irony of exiling Khan a second time this time on Ceti Alpha 5.
Well, yeah, except Spock shoots down this exact theory - espoused by Kirk - in the episode.
How? There is no record of what happened to them? A theory is not proof—it’s speculation.
I found Spock's reasoning pretty persuasive. A better theory - which really doesn't detract from your general idea very much if at all - is that Khan and the others were being secretly detained while the government(s) decided what to do with them, when they escaped and stole the Botany Bay.
Well, it depends on how you space things out. Imagine you have lots of sublight ships—and for whatever reason they don’t lend themselves to reconditioning. Colony X needs x amount of low grade supplies.
I could take a high end warp ship and drop off say, years of cargo.
But, I might tow a chain of sublight ships and drop them off along the way—fully loaded. A chain of 12 ships along a 12 ly distance means you get an automated ship every two years if each flies at half light speed. So it doesn’t matter about speed—when you get consistency like during the age of sail. Not a bad thing to have if Omega effects end FTL.
This frees up warp ships for important cargo.
Jets are fast—but trains are needed too.
The good thing is that the cycler chain is now permanent infrastructure—a constant exchange. Each can serve as way points in a space line.
Now when a warp ship like Enterprise shows up—it’s a big deal.
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I also wouldn't be surprised if the number of World War I/II deaths Spock cites were thought to be historically acceptable values in the mid-60s as well. My understanding is De Forest Research checked the content of the scripts, the world war casualty numbers seem like they would have been easy to look up and trivial to correct if they were found to be in error.
My head canon had Khan seeing the writing on the wall months ahead of time, and put together a hopefully un-necessary backup plan before being forced from power.
He had the Botany Bay prepared and waiting at his secret lair, located in a extinct volcano.
Following a series of "fair" trials of course.
It's really weird now when such dates are quoted! Those dates are now long ago (1993-96) Even the spaceflight mention of 2018 is now in our recent past and we failed to reach that technology! Watching this today we must sort of close one eye when listening!
JB
JB
Indeed, why should we treat Trek's 1996 differently from its 2063? I for one intend to still be around to witness the total failure of the Vulcans to arrive.
There are things stated about Khan and his ship and travels that can be divided in three:
1) Utter fiction that is in no conflict with the rest of the utter fiction we get in Trek.
2) Utter fiction that was written with A in mind, but thankfully so ambiguously that B is also allowed for, as necessitated by the rest of the utter fiction of Trek.
3) Utter fiction that clashes badly with the rest of the utter fiction of Trek.
Anything having to do with nonfiction is quite irrelevant in that episode, really. Nobody was ever expected to think that Earth would really have a big war with supermen in the 1990s - everybody was simply expected to accept that it would happen in this piece of fiction. The same with all aspects of the spaceflight there: cryosleep and advances in interplanetary propulsion were not predictions by RAND or NASA or DARPA or whatever, but sheer fiction, a bit of worldbuilding that only much later bore fruit.
A 1990s introduction of DY-100 for interplanetary missions that took years and involved cryosleep to facilitate such durations fall squarely in category 1. Sure, we might argue that the propulsive performance involved would actually allow for shorter missions - but that is no reason to think most missions would not have been longer, for greater return.
A separation of 1996 and TOS being guesstimated as two centuries is category 2 stuff. But rather than move either of the endpoints, which have since become quite fixed, we can simply argue that two centuries was a slightly low estimate, a mistake or a deliberate probing lie by Kirk. Or that the 270 years that passed involved Khan sleeping for less than 250, possibly because of Einstein.
Little is left in category 3. ST:ID suggests that cryosleep would have disappeared with the introduction of warp at the latest, but VOY "11:59" contradicts that with a story of cryo-colonists from 2210. It's a bit odd that McCoy would be so out of his depth with the cryo-pods of CumberKhan, when his starship could well be expected to run into cryo-colonizers in the mid-23rd century still... (And never mind that the Botany Bay had shelves, not pods, for her sleepers.)
But there's fun to be had with all categories, speculation-wise. Yes, we know precious little about the circumstances of Khan's launch. No, he probably wasn't attempting to colonize a faraway planet - when Kirk presents him with the idea at the end of "Space Seed", he's just plain surprised. Yes, Spock's argument that nobody would waste a spaceship for banishment or execution is solid. So did Khan himself launch - perhaps with the idea of using his ship's automated CQ as a lure to hijack a more advanced ship in the upcoming centuries, for a glorious reconquista of Earth? Or did one of Khan's fellow Augments shoot the boss man out of Sol, in a move that was neither purely hostile nor purely benevolent (as evidenced by the choice of the name for the ship in which this mystery fellow stacked the sleepers)? Just about anything is possible, thanks to the "missing records" and the ambiguity of the writing and the innate dodginess of Khan's character.
Timo Saloniemi
There are things stated about Khan and his ship and travels that can be divided in three:
1) Utter fiction that is in no conflict with the rest of the utter fiction we get in Trek.
2) Utter fiction that was written with A in mind, but thankfully so ambiguously that B is also allowed for, as necessitated by the rest of the utter fiction of Trek.
3) Utter fiction that clashes badly with the rest of the utter fiction of Trek.
Anything having to do with nonfiction is quite irrelevant in that episode, really. Nobody was ever expected to think that Earth would really have a big war with supermen in the 1990s - everybody was simply expected to accept that it would happen in this piece of fiction. The same with all aspects of the spaceflight there: cryosleep and advances in interplanetary propulsion were not predictions by RAND or NASA or DARPA or whatever, but sheer fiction, a bit of worldbuilding that only much later bore fruit.
A 1990s introduction of DY-100 for interplanetary missions that took years and involved cryosleep to facilitate such durations fall squarely in category 1. Sure, we might argue that the propulsive performance involved would actually allow for shorter missions - but that is no reason to think most missions would not have been longer, for greater return.
A separation of 1996 and TOS being guesstimated as two centuries is category 2 stuff. But rather than move either of the endpoints, which have since become quite fixed, we can simply argue that two centuries was a slightly low estimate, a mistake or a deliberate probing lie by Kirk. Or that the 270 years that passed involved Khan sleeping for less than 250, possibly because of Einstein.
Little is left in category 3. ST:ID suggests that cryosleep would have disappeared with the introduction of warp at the latest, but VOY "11:59" contradicts that with a story of cryo-colonists from 2210. It's a bit odd that McCoy would be so out of his depth with the cryo-pods of CumberKhan, when his starship could well be expected to run into cryo-colonizers in the mid-23rd century still... (And never mind that the Botany Bay had shelves, not pods, for her sleepers.)
But there's fun to be had with all categories, speculation-wise. Yes, we know precious little about the circumstances of Khan's launch. No, he probably wasn't attempting to colonize a faraway planet - when Kirk presents him with the idea at the end of "Space Seed", he's just plain surprised. Yes, Spock's argument that nobody would waste a spaceship for banishment or execution is solid. So did Khan himself launch - perhaps with the idea of using his ship's automated CQ as a lure to hijack a more advanced ship in the upcoming centuries, for a glorious reconquista of Earth? Or did one of Khan's fellow Augments shoot the boss man out of Sol, in a move that was neither purely hostile nor purely benevolent (as evidenced by the choice of the name for the ship in which this mystery fellow stacked the sleepers)? Just about anything is possible, thanks to the "missing records" and the ambiguity of the writing and the innate dodginess of Khan's character.
Timo Saloniemi
I can't give that a like as if I agree with it, but as pure humor it's hilarious. Spock as a Cliff Clavin type barroom know-it-all who's getting most of it wrong. Fantastic.
I always disliked the idea put forth by some that the Eugenics Wars were something that took place largely out of sight and away from Western nations such as the U.S. That just boggles the mind that a conflict of that scale could go largely unnoticed. I believe thas similar to what VOY did when they touched on the subject.
Utter BS in my view.
Utter BS in my view.
