A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaining

[The Overlord]

I think a problem Star Trek has is sometimes they put telling a message above making an entertaining product. Look at the Ferengi, they were designed to be villains that showed the dark side of capitalism, but they failed to be threatening. Have them hop around and act like monkeys well Riker stands tall and smirks at them isn't the best to introduce the guys who were supposed to be the main villains of the series.

I think some of the best Star Trek stories combine messages with good story telling, rather then putting the message above the needed story telling elements.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

I think a problem Star Trek has is sometimes they put telling a message above making an entertaining product. Look at the Ferengi, they were designed to be villains that showed the dark side of capitalism, but they failed to be threatening. Have them hop around and act like monkeys well Riker stands tall and smirks at them isn't the best to introduce the guys who were supposed to be the main villains of the series.

You contradict yourself here. If the Ferengi had turned into the main villains of the series and been all about the evils of capitalism the message would have crushed the entertainment. Who wants to watch a series all about the evils of capitalism, especially when the good guys have seemingly everything they could ever want?

 

[The Overlord]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

I think a problem Star Trek has is sometimes they put telling a message above making an entertaining product. Look at the Ferengi, they were designed to be villains that showed the dark side of capitalism, but they failed to be threatening. Have them hop around and act like monkeys well Riker stands tall and smirks at them isn't the best to introduce the guys who were supposed to be the main villains of the series.

You contradict yourself here. If the Ferengi had turned into the main villains of the series and been all about the evils of capitalism the message would have crushed the entertainment. Who wants to watch a series all about the evils of capitalism, especially when the good guys have seemingly everything they could ever want?

Not really a contradiction, what I want from an antagonist for them to effective and menacing, I care more about then any sort of message the writers are going for with the villains. They could have made the Ferengi menacing, have them be slick business men instead of hopping ape men, imagine an entire civilization made up of Lex Luthors, that is a potentially threatening villain. There are tons of things they could have done: they could dump toxic waste on other planets to make profits, use their business skills to create an economy alliance against the Federation.

Even if the Federation no longer has money persay, they still trade with other civilizations, that gives something the Ferengi can use as leverage, trying to block trade deals with the Federation for their own gain. Heck having the Ferengi Alliance controlled and organized by mega corporations, if there is anything that has relevant, even in the 80s, its the growth of transnational corporations. The Ferengi didn't seem like a capitalistic civilization in their first appearers, they weren't slick, they dressed more like warriors then business men and their enigmatic nature clashed with ultra capitalist nature.

I think the Ferengi could have easily been compelling villains, but they had to written as effective villains, not ape men hopping around so Riker can smirk at them.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

Have you never seen the DS9 Ferengi? Awesome race, not cardboard apes or villains.

 

[The Overlord]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

Have you never seen the DS9 Ferengi? Awesome race, not cardboard apes or villains.

I know but they aren't really villains, they are more comic relief. I am talking about the Ferengi as they were first realized and executed and again I am just using them to talk about a larger point.

I think the 20th century characters from Neutral Zone served the same function, set up as straw men for Picard to lord over, rather then being interesting characters in a interesting story, heck it took from the more important stuff with Romulans and the Borg.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

If you're point is that TNG is too preachy you'll get no arguments from me

 

[T'Girl]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

they are more comic relief

Sometimes sure, but other times the Ferengi (especially Quark) are the most open eyed, clearest thinking folks on the show.

If you want a real example of "comic relief?" How about whenever Ben Sisko
BEGINS ... TO TALK... IN ... A LOUD ... ON AGAIN, OFF AGAIN ...STACCATO ...
so people will understand that he trying to say something important.

Now there's some comedy.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

If you want to see a truly menacing Ferengi, you should check out DaiMon Junt, in Gibraltar's fanfiction (specifically the story Gravity). This guy actually comes close to Garak in his scariness level. I'm not kidding.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

I guess the message has sometimes gotten a little too-heavy handed for my tastes, in one episode or another of one show or another, but the messages expressed in the best of "Star Trek" is one of the things I like about it in the first place.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

they are more comic relief

Sometimes sure, but other times the Ferengi (especially Quark) are the most open eyed, clearest thinking folks on the show.

Word. I like it how he calls the Feds on their moral highground bullshit sometimes. Well, I always like it when someone does that, especially if it's a member of a society that's looked down upon by the Feds. Like the Ferengi or the Cardassians.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

The Ferengi are a good exmple of how Star Trek can take a mistake - preachy approach to eeevil Ferengi - and turn it into an asset - comic/sardonic Ferengi characters puncturing Fed superiority like a root beer bubble. And with Nog joining Starfleet, they took the evolution even further.

 

[John Mason]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

somehow the message has gotten lost, hence; in my opinion, the failure of Enterprise....

 

[Gary7]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

It's entertainment, pure and simple. Sometimes there's a message or moral that sits prominently in view, and can come off a bit preachy, but there's few and far between. As for the Ferengi, that's just a matter of being consistent. Early TNG did a horrible job with them, but this gradually changed. And as others said, they really came into their own in DS9... one of the better alien regulars featured on the show. I don't see any issue with messages here.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

They should have strangled that director. The Ferengi were NOT supposed to be portrayed that way.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

somehow the message has gotten lost, hence; in my opinion, the failure of Enterprise....

ENT failed because it was too similar to its predecessors, not because it was too different.

Although it's kind of hilarious to call a TV show that lasted four seasons a failure. Most shows would kill to go that long.

 

[scotpens]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

If you're point is that TNG is too preachy you'll get no arguments from me

Trek TOS could occasionally be just as preachy ("Let That Be Your Last Battlefield") or self-consciously "relevant" ("A Private Little War"). The story was overwhelmed by the Message. Of course, in the case of LTBYLB, there wasn't much of a story to begin with.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

Hey The Omega Glory is my least favorite Trek ever for the incredibly eye rolling nationalism of it.

I think it was just easier to ignore a lot of TOS preachiness because I was busy gazing adoringly at Kirk.

 

[RPJOB]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

Star Trek does nuance about as subtly as a steel toed boot to the groin.

The premise of the show gets switched around to service the "message of the week". If the Prime Directive means that the Federation will not interfere in the affairs of other planets why do they keep showing up, overturning the status quo and then wandering off, leaving turmoil in their wake?

At it's beest, Tek is enormously entertaining. At it's worst it makes Lost in Space look cerebral. Luckily, it's entertaining more often than not. As far as the way they handle message shows, it's about as deep as a fortune cookie.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

Hey The Omega Glory is my least favorite Trek ever for the incredibly eye rolling nationalism of it.

I think it was just easier to ignore a lot of TOS preachiness because I was busy gazing adoringly at Kirk.

Yeah that kind of happened to me, too, I have to admit.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: A problem with Star Trek: putting a message above being entertaini

As an editor, I find that even experienced authors can go astray when they start putting a "message" before the basics of storytelling: engaging characters, twists, conflicts, complications, etc. I still remember this romance novel I edited aeons ago where the author, with the best of intentions, kept trying to squeeze a vital message about the environment into the love story, resulting in dialogue along the lines of:

"I love you, darling, but we must do everything we can to save the imperiled Amazon rain forest, which, as you know, provides ninety percent of the world's oxygen . . . ."

(I swear to God, I'm not making this up. That was actually a line in the manuscript, more or less.)

The way I see it, if you set up interesting characters and dilemmas, and concentrate on telling a good story, any themes or messages will just sort of arise organically out of the conflicts in the story.

When I sit down at the keyboard, I'm not thinking "What can I write today that teaches an important lesson about global warming?" I'm thinking, "what's the funniest/scariest/most exciting way I can get Captain Kirk into trouble today?"

When you start putting the message ahead of the story, you run the risk of writing propaganda, not fiction.