a new JIM KIRK?

[Joemac]

i love the idea of a young Kirk as a rebel. As for Picard, he was a rebel as a young man. Remember he ended up with a mechanical heart due to a bar fight in his cadet years, and got into trouble with Boothby for carving his girlfriends initials on one of the acadamys trees

 

[wellsweb]

...On the other hand, Kirk was more of a 'bookworm' and became more of a rebel in his later years...

Well, we know from Gary Mitchell that Lieutenant Kirk was very serious and very studious during the time he (Kirk) was an instructor at the Academy -- and one could argue he may have been an easy target for bullies as an underclassman (maybe), but we don't know what he was like before the Academy.

We are never told that Kirk was actually an instructor at the academy. The line that Gary Mitchell uses is largely misunderstood. When he says "In Kirk's class...", he is referring to Kirk's graduating class, as in The Class of 2253 (or whatever it was). I graduated college in 1985. Therefore the class of 1985 is "my class". I didn't teach it. I'm a member of it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

On the other hand, Kirk was more of a 'bookworm' and became more of a rebel in his later years.

Or, as in novels such as the classic "Best Destiny" by Diane Carey, and the more recent "Academy: Collision Course" (by Shatner, no less), we are shown that Kirk was a rebel, who became a "stack of text books on legs" when he was Gary Mitchell's lecturer.

The line that Gary Mitchell uses is largely misunderstood.

Perhaps by you. Why would Gary care about who has to behave a certain way in Kirk's class, unless he was criticizing his own instructor?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...On the other hand, Kirk was more of a 'bookworm' and became more of a rebel in his later years...

Well, we know from Gary Mitchell that Lieutenant Kirk was very serious and very studious during the time he (Kirk) was an instructor at the Academy -- and one could argue he may have been an easy target for bullies as an underclassman (maybe), but we don't know what he was like before the Academy.

We are never told that Kirk was actually an instructor at the academy. The line that Gary Mitchell uses is largely misunderstood. When he says "In Kirk's class...", he is referring to Kirk's graduating class, as in The Class of 2253 (or whatever it was). I graduated college in 1985. Therefore the class of 1985 is "my class". I didn't teach it. I'm a member of it.

Here's part of that dialog from WNMHGB:

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.

[emphasis mine]
​

The fact Mitchell referred to him as "Lieutenant Kirk" and said he heard this from "upperclassmen" is the reason I think Kirk was an officer/instructor while Mitchell was an underclassman cadet.

 

[M'Sharak]

Well, we know from Gary Mitchell that Lieutenant Kirk was very serious and very studious during the time he (Kirk) was an instructor at the Academy -- and one could argue he may have been an easy target for bullies as an underclassman (maybe), but we don't know what he was like before the Academy.

We are never told that Kirk was actually an instructor at the academy. The line that Gary Mitchell uses is largely misunderstood. When he says "In Kirk's class...", he is referring to Kirk's graduating class, as in The Class of 2253 (or whatever it was). I graduated college in 1985. Therefore the class of 1985 is "my class". I didn't teach it. I'm a member of it.

Here's part of that dialog from WNMHGB:

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.

[emphasis mine]
​

The fact Mitchell referred to him as "Lieutenant Kirk" and said he heard this from "upperclassmen" is the reason I think Kirk was an officer/instructor while Mitchell was an underclassman cadet.

The one you describe here is the only reading of it that really makes any sense, imnsho. Too many contortions are required to make it mean anything else. Kirk's graduating class? Uh-uh, I don't think that works at all.


OT: Interesting website/blog, wellsweb. I may have to explore that some time.

 

[Patrickivan]

He could have been a Teacher's Assistant.

 

[darkshadow0001]

I always thought Kirk was a womanizer and a trouble-maker. JJ's trailer didn't prove anything new to me except Kirk is being played by a different actor, is all.

 

[shapeshifter]

It should be clear to many people by now that many things said in Trek are open to interpretation and this line of dialogue is no different.

"Watch out for Jim Kirk. In his class you either think or sink" Either he was a teacher or, in first place, (Head of the Class) are the two interpretations, correct? The writers had to make a choice and they did, presumably one which best served the story.

I always assumed it was the later.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

It should be clear to many people by now that many things said in Trek are open to interpretation and this line of dialogue is no different.

"Watch out for Jim Kirk. In his class you either think or sink" Either he was a teacher or, in first place, (Head of the Class) are the two interpretations, correct? The writers had to make a choice and they did, presumably one which best served the story.

I always assumed it was the later.

...but Mitchell didn't say "Watch out for Jim Kirk", he said "Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk"

Plus Mitchell said it was the "first thing [he] ever heard from the upperclassmen", making me think Mitchell was an underclassman...otherwise why else would he specify that he heard it from upperclassmen?

I suppose that the upperclassmen/underclassman thing can be open a little (very little) to interpretation, but there is no doubt that Kirk was already a Lieutenant during this "class" Mitchell was speaking of. And it seems (to me at least) that Mitchell was an underclassman -- and proably a cadet, since he said it was "the first thing" he heard.

 

[shapeshifter]

Well then I don't know what to tell you.

Someone posted a quote around here wherein someone claimed (paraphrased) some things are going to be the same, some different.. Each of us are either gonna deal with changes and continue Trekking or not. Good Luck.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I don't have a problem with recasting. Star Trek has already done it before. We've had 2 Lt. Saaviks, 2 Zephram Cochranes, and I think at least 3 Alexanders.

JJ has calculated that only by making Kirk a 'rebel with out a cause' can he attract the young boys, and girls, who have always, since the days of Dean and McQueen, been attracted to such characters....

I mostly agree. There is plenty of evidence that Kirk is a rebel. However, in all the instances I can think of, he's always a rebel WITH a cause. I think that the lines that best define Kirk's character are in The Wrath of Khan when he says, "I don't believe in the no-win scenario. [...] I don't like to lose."

In fact, so long as someone brought up Han Solo, I'd like to postulate what is, IMO, the primary difference between Kirk & Solo. Han Solo is always baffled by how he got into these extreme situations and even more baffled by how he could possibly get out of them. With Kirk, there is never that uncertainty. He rushes in "where angels fear to tread," betting it all on the line and always (to borrow a BSG line) rolls the hard six. It's not entirely realistic but that's why they call it fiction.

Thankfully, from the brief clips I've seen, it looks like Chris Pine embodies this fearlessness. I look forward to seeing his full performance. (If anyone concerns me, it's Dr. McCoy. He's always been my favorite and the stuff that they're showing in the trailers just looks so weird.)

One of the most interesting analyses I ever read of Kirk looked at the many contradictions contained within the character. Personally, I think it's why he has become such an enduring icon. Sure, pop culture has had a good deal of fun with Jimmy boy, but he still speaks to many.

He contained so many contradictions because so many different people were writing for the show and novels, with each of them looking to create something interesting and noteworthy in their script or novel, and that the character became an inconsistent, contradictory, and superhuman. I always felt the womanizing was simply because the writers always just threw in a girl to get ratings and spark interest. Same with the fighting. These overused plot devices became too incorporated into the character and were so very unrealistic.

It's like what Shatner said one time, "I wanted so badly for the show to succeed that I poured everything I had into the role. And apparently that became part of the character."

 

[wellsweb]

We are never told that Kirk was actually an instructor at the academy. The line that Gary Mitchell uses is largely misunderstood. When he says "In Kirk's class...", he is referring to Kirk's graduating class, as in The Class of 2253 (or whatever it was). I graduated college in 1985. Therefore the class of 1985 is "my class". I didn't teach it. I'm a member of it.

Here's part of that dialog from WNMHGB:

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.

[emphasis mine]
​

The fact Mitchell referred to him as "Lieutenant Kirk" and said he heard this from "upperclassmen" is the reason I think Kirk was an officer/instructor while Mitchell was an underclassman cadet.

The one you describe here is the only reading of it that really makes any sense, imnsho. Too many contortions are required to make it mean anything else. Kirk's graduating class? Uh-uh, I don't think that works at all.


OT: Interesting website/blog, wellsweb. I may have to explore that some time.

OK. Maybe I shouldn't post in the wee hours anymore. LOL

I seem to recall that Ben Finney served as some sort of instructor. That's how Kirk met him. I yield to the superior intellect.

 

[ST-One]

Hamlet? Bond? Sherlock freakin' Holmes?
Are you insane?
All of those are from literary sources that pre-existed any film or tv incarnation. Recasting them is just re-interpreting fiction that exists outside of any visual canon.
The original cast created the original crew. They have always been those characters and always will be, for me and maybe a few other sad atavistic survivors.
Every generation having its own Kirk and crew?
Madness!

Sigh.
All amusements aside, those of you who are in favor of recasting, I just don't understand you.

You are making no sense at all.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...Hamlet? Bond? Sherlock freakin' Holmes?
Are you insane?
All of those are from literary sources that pre-existed any film or tv incarnation. Recasting them is just re-interpreting fiction that exists outside of any visual canon.
The original cast created the original crew. They have always been those characters and always will be, for me and maybe a few other sad atavistic survivors.
Every generation having its own Kirk and crew?
Madness!...

I never read any James Bond novels, so for me Sean Connery was the very first Bond I ever heard of or seen. That didn't make it any harder for me to accept the other Bonds (altough Timothy Dalton was a bit 'stiff', but I digress ).

 

[uniderth]

But the other James Bonds were actually different James Bonds. You don't think James Bond would live in his prime for about fourty years. They train another agent and then name Him James Bond and give him the 007 designation.

At least that's what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

On a side note It'd be funny to see a World War 2 James Bond or a Revolutionary war James Bond against the Americans.

 

[ST-One]

But the other James Bonds were actually different James Bonds. You don't think James Bond would live in his prime for about fourty years. They train another agent and then name Him James Bond and give him the 007 designation.

At least that's what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

Lazenby's, Moore's, Dalton's and Brosnan's Bond was always the widower of the same woman that was killed in 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service'.
The time Bond lives in is the 'eternal present'.

Sleep tight.

 

[M'Sharak]

I seem to recall that Ben Finney served as some sort of instructor. That's how Kirk met him. I yield to the superior intellect.

He did, in fact (apparently for longer than was customary) and it was during that time that he came to know Kirk, who was then a midshipman (a term for a student at Starfleet Academy, apparently interchangeable with "Cadet".)

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ben_Finney#Ruined_career

Also, from dialogue:

STONE: Let us begin with your relationship with Commander Finney. You knew him for a long time, didn't you?
KIRK: Yes. He was an instructor at the Academy when I was a midshipman, but that didn't stand in the way of our beginning a close friendship. His daughter Jamie, who was here last night, was named after me.
STONE: It's common knowledge that something happened to your friendship.
KIRK: It's no secret. We were assigned to the same ship some years later. I relieved him on watch once and found a circuit open to the atomic matter piles that should've been closed. Another five minutes, it could have blown up the ship.

The relationship (instructor/student) between Finney and Kirk at that time (Kirk as midshipman) would have been similar to the later one between Kirk and Mitchell (Mitchell as cadet/midshipman) which presumably took place after Kirk's tour on the Farragut but possibly before his tour on the Republic (where his career-damaging report on Finney occurred.)

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

But the other James Bonds were actually different James Bonds. You don't think James Bond would live in his prime for about fourty years. They train another agent and then name Him James Bond and give him the 007 designation.

At least that's what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

Lazenby's, Moore's, Dalton's and Brosnan's Bond was always the widower of the same woman that was killed in 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service'.
The time Bond lives in is the 'eternal present'.

I don't recall any references to the dead wife in the Brosnan movies.

 

[pookha]

Here's part of that dialog from WNMHGB:

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.

[emphasis mine]
​

The fact Mitchell referred to him as "Lieutenant Kirk" and said he heard this from "upperclassmen" is the reason I think Kirk was an officer/instructor while Mitchell was an underclassman cadet.

The one you describe here is the only reading of it that really makes any sense, imnsho. Too many contortions are required to make it mean anything else. Kirk's graduating class? Uh-uh, I don't think that works at all.


OT: Interesting website/blog, wellsweb. I may have to explore that some time.

OK. Maybe I shouldn't post in the wee hours anymore. LOL

I seem to recall that Ben Finney served as some sort of instructor. That's how Kirk met him. I yield to the superior intellect.

uh,,
kirk easily could have been a student at the academy and at same later time when he was a lt. came back as an instructor.

considering he was a lt. at the time of the farragutt incident his being an instructor could have been post farragutt.
something like what happened to the farragutt with kirk blaming himself could have bought forth a change from being a cock sure rebel into the person described by gary mitchell.

 

[wellsweb]

The one you describe here is the only reading of it that really makes any sense, imnsho. Too many contortions are required to make it mean anything else. Kirk's graduating class? Uh-uh, I don't think that works at all.


OT: Interesting website/blog, wellsweb. I may have to explore that some time.

OK. Maybe I shouldn't post in the wee hours anymore. LOL

I seem to recall that Ben Finney served as some sort of instructor. That's how Kirk met him. I yield to the superior intellect.

uh,,
kirk easily could have been a student at the academy and at same later time when he was a lt. came back as an instructor.

considering he was a lt. at the time of the farragutt incident his being an instructor could have been post farragutt.
something like what happened to the farragutt with kirk blaming himself could have bought forth a change from being a cock sure rebel into the person described by gary mitchell.

I like your reasoning, Pookha. It makes perfect sense. A personal tragedy of that magnitude would very likely cause a shift in Kirk's attitudes.