A Matter of Shatner's Perspective

[ZapBrannigan]

You guys are describing someone more like Walter Koenig. And yes, even if you go up several notches in talent and stage presence to William Windom, a career can still be still quite limited, like the guy you describe.

But William Shatner's looks and talent, charisma, presence, and sex appeal were a full order of magnitude higher. Gene Roddenberry said at the time that Star Trek was lucky to get him. If he had landed a movie instead of a series, he might have become that era's Brad Pitt.

I agree with TREK_GOD_1, that Shatner was the only TOS main cast member who would still have attained full stardom without TOS.

 

[Commishsleer]

You guys are describing someone more like Walter Koenig. And yes, even if you go up several notches in talent and stage presence to William Windom, a career can still be still quite limited, like the guy you describe.

But William Shatner's looks and talent, charisma, presence, and sex appeal were a full order of magnitude higher. Gene Roddenberry said at the time that Star Trek was lucky to get him. If he had landed a movie instead of a series, he might have become that era's Brad Pitt.

I agree with TREK_GOD_1, that Shatner was the only TOS main cast member who would still have attained full stardom without TOS.

So Star Trek stopped Shatner's true stardom?
He would have been better off waiting for a movie contract?

 

[Maurice]

You guys are describing someone more like Walter Koenig. And yes, even if you go up several notches in talent and stage presence to William Windom, a career can still be still quite limited, like the guy you describe.

But William Shatner's looks and talent, charisma, presence, and sex appeal were a full order of magnitude higher. Gene Roddenberry said at the time that Star Trek was lucky to get him. If he had landed a movie instead of a series, he might have become that era's Brad Pitt.

I agree with TREK_GOD_1, that Shatner was the only TOS main cast member who would still have attained full stardom without TOS.

We only remember the ones that were successful. Plenty of actors match he description of Shatner you gave who didn't land in iconic roles that stuck. He might've "attained full stardom" w/o Star Trek, but there's no guarantee he would have. Sometimes fame is the right actor at the right time for just the right role (i.e. Nimoy).

 

[Phaser Two]

Some interesting takes here. I think some people took these latest tweets the wrong way. IMO they don't show distance or crankiness, really; they show someone who has always been very outspoken - and yet also very nice and decent** - interacting with people (which he doesn't have to do) who are still his fans. In a way I think it's part of Shatner's persona not to acknowledge how much he really likes Star Trek. But it's always been very clear to me anyway that he enjoyed the association with Captain Kirk and still does. IIRC in the early days of the pandemic he was interacting with fans through a series of "Captain's Log" entries over Twitter. And just in the exchanges quoted here he mentions Billy Blackburn, which is not what you'd expect from a "curmudgeon." For that matter, while he clearly gets paid for the Ticonderoga visits, he absolutely does not need the money in any way, shape or form, suggesting that he enjoys doing it.

**I don't really buy the stories of Shatner being rude to Doohan, Takei, and Koenig because they don't jibe with any of the contemporary evidence we have from the set. It's also notable that even during the #metoo era, as far as I know not one female costar ever accused Bill of inappropriate behavior. I'm not saying it makes him a saint to have refrained from horrible conduct, but I'm saying that critical thinking and analysis seems to suggest that Bill Shatner was and still is a kind and decent person.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I don't believe Shatner saw Doohan, Takei, Koenig, Nichols as co-stars at the time of the series, and when there was issues on the set he took actions in his own hands to make a scene work. Of course it may have slighted some of the featured talent some screen time but I don't think they knew what was happening, the internal politics, at the time and time is money and something has to be done or you don't have an episode. As a star on a series Shatner needed to make the show work and he was smart enough to know those guys were not that good in their talent while Nimoy and Kelley would and could make the scenes more effective. Hey, the directors should get the blame for slighting them as well but even the directors knew Doohan, Takei, Nichols, and Koenig were not that good to save a scene or make it as effective as their leads.

 

[Commishsleer]

I don't believe Shatner saw Doohan, Takei, Koenig, Nichols as co-stars at the time of the series, and when there was issues on the set he took actions in his own hands to make a scene work. Of course it may have slighted some of the featured talent some screen time but I don't think they knew what was happening, the internal politics, at the time and time is money and something has to be done or you don't have an episode. As a star on a series Shatner needed to make the show work and he was smart enough to know those guys were not that good in their talent while Nimoy and Kelley would and could make the scenes more effective. Hey, the directors should get the blame for slighting them as well but even the directors knew Doohan, Takei, Nichols, and Koenig were not that good to save a scene or make it as effective as their leads.

So Shatner is justified in treating them like the dirt they are because they aren't as talented as him? LOL.

Some interesting takes here. I think some people took these latest tweets the wrong way. IMO they don't show distance or crankiness, really; they show someone who has always been very outspoken - and yet also very nice and decent** - interacting with people (which he doesn't have to do) who are still his fans. In a way I think it's part of Shatner's persona not to acknowledge how much he really likes Star Trek. But it's always been very clear to me anyway that he enjoyed the association with Captain Kirk and still does. IIRC in the early days of the pandemic he was interacting with fans through a series of "Captain's Log" entries over Twitter. And just in the exchanges quoted here he mentions Billy Blackburn, which is not what you'd expect from a "curmudgeon." For that matter, while he clearly gets paid for the Ticonderoga visits, he absolutely does not need the money in any way, shape or form, suggesting that he enjoys doing it.

**I don't really buy the stories of Shatner being rude to Doohan, Takei, and Koenig because they don't jibe with any of the contemporary evidence we have from the set. It's also notable that even during the #metoo era, as far as I know not one female costar ever accused Bill of inappropriate behavior. I'm not saying it makes him a saint to have refrained from horrible conduct, but I'm saying that critical thinking and analysis seems to suggest that Bill Shatner was and still is a kind and decent person.

Do you think really think Shatner would appear without being paid? You've got to be kidding. Maybe to do something he loved - like a horse event but never to a Star Trek occasion. But there's probably an element to of it of him keeping relevant. Do you think Rupert Murdoch turns up to board meetings because he needs the money? Especially since Shatner has been 'poor' he probably thinks he still needs to keep working. Nothing wrong with it though - but he's not doing it 'for the fans'.
I've been to conventions where some co-stars say he's lovely and others say he wasn't. Are all the people who say he wasn't a 'perfect' gentlemen liars and the people who said he was OK telling the truth?
I've read Doohan's book and you know the things that he says (or his co-writer says) that Shatner did weren't that terrible but just a bit disrespectful.
And if people are OK with Shatner thinking he's too good for Doohan, Takei, etc and us fans then good for them.

 

[Phaser Two]

Do you think really think Shatner would appear without being paid? You've got to be kidding.

I didn't say that.

And if people are OK with Shatner thinking he's too good for Doohan, Takei, etc and us fans then good for them.

I didn't say that either.

 

[dupersuper]

Doohan, Takei, Nichols, and Koenig were not that good.

 

[STEPhon IT]

So Shatner is justified in treating them like the dirt they are because they aren't as talented as him? LOL.

I don't think Shatner thought he treated them like dirt but those featured talent was not involved in what was happening. Scenes needed to be altered to make it more effective, how they felt was not of importance but the work was. He did what was needed to make the best product possible, but I think he shouldn't get the blame if they felt that way. There were others who thought the same thing, scenes needed to be altered... this is not new for Hollywood projects.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Hey, maybe Doohan, Takei, Koenig, and Nichols should've had the same screen time as Shatner. If that works in your head that's good. No worries.

 

[Phaser Two]

Hey, maybe Doohan, Takei, Koenig, and Nichols should've had the same screen time as Shatner. If that works in your head that's good. No worries.

I thought all four were good, and Doohan was beyond outstanding.

 

[Noname Given]

So Shatner is justified in treating them like the dirt they are because

Shatner didn't treat them like dirt - he treated them like the supporting characters they were, and the way the majority of those types of characters were treated in 1960ies TV series.

Shatner was the LEAD of the series. He had two co-stars Nimoy and Kelly. The rest were there to support the stories surrounding the main 3 for the majority of the series. Yes, a few of them got an episode here and there where they played a larger role; BUT (even with Scotty as the central plot point in "Wolf In The Fold") - the ultimate story there was how Kirkk, Spock and McCoy SAVED Scotty from execution (and defeated an ageless entity). The leads were there every day 14+ hours a day.

The supporting cast may be there one or two days of a 7 to 10 day shoot.

And Star trek wasn't alone in this paradigm - look at "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" or "The Man From Uncle" <--- they too had recurring supporting characters in small roles (and Voyage was probably the most like "Star Trek" in that respect). In Voyage, EVERYTHING centered around Admiral Nelson and Capt. Crane; while in Uncle it was at first all about Napoleon Solo and later became Napoleon Solo and Illya Kuryakin.

Hell, I have to call BS on how much George Takei likes to claim that he "knew Star Trek was quality and was always proud and wanting to be a part of it..." when he (in what I'm sure he felt was a very good for his career move) - to miss a good part of Star Treks second season to go film "The Green Berets" with John Wayne. Hell, he even admits he didn't appreciate that Walter Koenig was hired because he felt they did it to the detriment of his character of Sulu and resent all the screen time Sulu lost (even though a lot of it was because "The Green Berets" shooting schedule ran long and Takei was unavailable so they gave lines written for him to 'Chekov' because hey, one supporting cast member is as good as another).

And tell me - is "The Doomsday Machine" any less popular because Nichelle Nicol's "Uhura" isn't there - bur "Lt. Palmer" is? Oh, and BTW, Nichol's was SUPPOSED to be in the episode - and was contracted at the time; but she informed producers that she had booked a singing engagement that week, and would rather do that; so again, her lines were just given to another character created to fill in her role for that episode - and viewers were free to assume (with a crew of 430) - this incident happened when Uhura was off of her duty shift.

So yeah, spare me that Star Trek" couldn't or wouldn't have achieved what it did without "the four" - and yes, they WERE a part of the overall tapestry; but again, TOS was NEVER an ensemble show; like the other shows of its time it was centered around its Lead (William Shatner) and his Co-Stars (Leonard Nimoy and Deforest Kelly).

And hell, remember that at the start (the first season) - Deforest Kelly's "Dr. McCoy" was NOT seen as a co-lead. That grew out of the fact that Kelly was a great actor and they saw he had chemistry with Nimoy; so they added him into the lead/co-lead's mix. And yes, "the four" plus Shatner and Nimoy stated Kelly got along with everyone because that's how he was; but even he wasn't on set as may days in most episodes than Shatner and Nimoy. Plus at the time Shatner and Nimoy didn't get along that well, because Nimoy began to think he was the REAL lead of the show -- and the producers let that dynamic go on because it wasn't affecting their performances in the actual episodes, plus the ratings weren't that great so it wasn't like they had to put up with it for many more seasons. The only reason it got resolved was for Season 3 Fred Freiberger (who was taking over for GR who had enough and just wanted the money for what he knew was the final season); need to know so there was the famous meeting where GR said "Shatner is the Lead" - which pretty much burst Nimoy's bubble and set the tome for Nimoy's beginning disillusionment with the character and the third season. To Nimoy's credit he jumped into another role that he at first thought gave him a great chance to play many different characters aka the support character role of "Paris" on Mission Impossible immediately after Star trek ended production, but even there he soon got tired of that role and decided not to renew after two seasons on that series.

But yeah, my point? I don't think "the four" were treated any better or worse by William Shatner than any other actor in the same level of role was treated. I think as the years went on, and they found themselves typecast; they began to look back and feel they never 'got their proper due' when seeing how much Paramount was making off Star Trek over the years; and of course because Shatner was the lead; and felt (in a view that was support by BOTH the producers and the writing staff of Star Trek) the series was centered about him; of course if a scene was lagging and the director or line producer asked "hey how do we make it work/make it 'tighter/more to the point' - yes, they might cut some screen time or lines from the support cast members.

So, yeah, I think the 'stories' were embellished a bit over their years at conventions (IE - made more entertaining to an audience) - and as they retell them, they tend to re-enforce their own belief that somehow Shatner was out to wreck their careers personally.

Plus, I'm sorry, but if you're that unhappy, one would think you might mention it to someone in the production team. Hell, Nichols admits she was sleeping with GR for a time DURING the production of Star Trek (and yes, Majel knew) - so you'd think at some point she might bring up a grievance or two.

But no - everything is Shatner's fault because he's just an asshole. (And that's not to say he's a saint, and on occasion might have handle some things in a different way - but it was a lot of stress being the lead of a series in that era of TV production.)

 

[Maurice]

[...]for Season 3 Fred Freiberger (who was taking over for GR who had enough and just wanted the money for what he knew was the final season)[...]

Unless you can quote an interview where Freiberger states the motivation you are assigning to him I am going to assume you just made that up.

But yeah, my point? I don't think "the four" were treated any better or worse by William Shatner than any other actor in the same level of role was treated.

How about guest stars with large roles? John Crawford, who played Commissioner Ferris
in "The Galileo Seven" said:

I was very unhappy with Star Trek. The star of Star Trek, we all know who I am talking about (Shatner) was having an ego problem, and you could just see it. Every time the minute I walked on to the set, you could just see it. I wasn't allowed to move around the set during that scene. He said, "Oh, no, no, no, this is the bridge of the ship and we can't be moving around."

So it wasn't just the smaller roles. It was guest stars, too.

So, yeah, I think the 'stories' were embellished a bit over their years at conventions (IE - made more entertaining to an audience) - and as they retell them, they tend to re-enforce their own belief that somehow Shatner was out to wreck their careers personally.

This I agree with.

 

[Noname Given]

Unless you can quote an interview where Freiberger states the motivation you are assigning to him I am going to assume you just made that up.

What? That GR didn't want to be involved in the day to day duties of an EP and GR just wanted the money - which is WHY he handed the show to Fred Feiberger? Which is how I meant that portion - not that Freiberger himself was just doing it for the money. GR was burnt out and felt NBC screwed him by changing the third season timeslot after they said they wouldn't when it was first renewed for Season 3.

How about guest stars with large roles? John Crawford, who played Commissioner Ferris
in "The Galileo Seven" said:

​

So it wasn't just the smaller roles. It was guest stars, too.

I'm sure you could find guest stars who would have issues with any one of the cast. Hell, William Windom said BOTH Shatner and Nimoy were actually counting the number of lines they each had and complaining to producers about that aspect when they were shooting "The Doomsday Machine".

 

[diankra]

Olmos was not well known when Trek III was in production. He'd starred in a critically acclaimed but not widely seen film (Zoot Suit), and been in a few high-profile films but not as the lead (e.g. Blade Runner) so it's possible he might've been less likely to say no to something with aliens in those pre-Miami Vice days. But who can say?

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IIRC, the studio objection to Olmos was that he was too short. Nimoy argued that most of his scenes would be in his captain chair, and most of the rest done by stuntmen, but the bosses still said no.

 

[diankra]

Douglas Adams said much the same thing with his 'lying drunk in a field outside Innsbruck' story. He'd had to repeat it so many times for interviews and articles, he eventually wasn't even sure if it had happened or if he'd just made it up for journalists.

See also the encyclopedia that runs from Dal to Lek.

 

[Commishsleer]

I'm sure you could find guest stars who would have issues with any one of the cast. Hell, William Windom said BOTH Shatner and Nimoy were actually counting the number of lines they each had and complaining to producers about that aspect when they were shooting "The Doomsday Machine".

It wasn't just John Crawford.

There are a 100 stories out there where Shatner has been egotistical or unkind but probably no worse than any Hollywood star. You know I think of the story where he hid Nimoy's bike on set. Probably thought he was hilarious but Nimoy was probably just annoyed if the story is true. But every tweet Shatner issues about Star Trek and its fans is just annoying to me. Saying that, if he ever comes back to Australia I'll pay my money to see him. He's still a legend in my eyes.

 

[Maurice]

What? That GR didn't want to be involved in the day to day duties of an EP and GR just wanted the money - which is WHY he handed the show to Fred Feiberger? Which is how I meant that portion - not that Freiberger himself was just doing it for the money. GR was burnt out and felt NBC screwed him by changing the third season timeslot after they said they wouldn't when it was first renewed for Season 3.

Whoops. Sorry, I misread that statement in your post and though you were referring to Freiberger. My bad.

I'm sure you could find guest stars who would have issues with any one of the cast. Hell, William Windom said BOTH Shatner and Nimoy were actually counting the number of lines they each had and complaining to producers about that aspect when they were shooting "The Doomsday Machine".

I thought that was Spinrad who claimed that? Or did Windom say the same thing?

 

[Maurice]

It wasn't just John Crawford.

There are a 100 stories out there where Shatner has been egotistical or unkind but probably no worse than any Hollywood star. You know I think of the story where he hid Nimoy's bike on set. Probably thought he was hilarious but Nimoy was probably just annoyed if the story is true. But every tweet Shatner issues about Star Trek and its fans is just annoying to me. Saying that, if he ever comes back to Australia I'll pay my money to see him. He's still a legend in my eyes.

Yes, but it was just one example.

As I said, I had a friend who had to work for him for two days and she's hated him ever since.

 

[johnnybear]

See also the encyclopedia that runs from Dal to Lek.

I have that book!!! although it is Dar to Lek actually!
JB