A matter of Color.

[Maurice]

If I may remind the court, Theiss was primarily a WARDROBE man in film and TV prior to Star Trek which was his first as the series the costume designer, as opposed to working on the odd episode. Wardrobe people dress the actors, they don't design the costumes. Theiss was in many way a n00b as a TV costume designer then.

 

[Capt.Mac]

I've seen the fabric. It's green. See the article: http://www.startrek.com/article/shirts-and-skins-in-tos
DS9's Tribbles & Enterprise's gold-colored tunics were based on observing the same episodes that we've all seen over the years, so the assumption was made that it was gold. The following is conjecture but I think the wraparound tunics were a more saturated green because Thiess was unsatisfied on how the command tunics weren't showing their true color.
Another article: http://forgottentrek.com/william-ware-theiss-a-stitch-in-time/

 

[mb22]

Were the yellow shades the same in the two pilots as the series proper?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I've seen the fabric. It's green. See the article: http://www.startrek.com/article/shirts-and-skins-in-tos
DS9's Tribbles & Enterprise's gold-colored tunics were based on observing the same episodes that we've all seen over the years, so the assumption was made that it was gold. The following is conjecture but I think the wraparound tunics were a more saturated green because Thiess was unsatisfied on how the command tunics weren't showing their true color.
Another article: http://forgottentrek.com/william-ware-theiss-a-stitch-in-time/

I accept everything you're saying, but it should also be noted that the "green" dye Theiss used had a yellow component that came out strongly under bright studio lights or sunlight, obscuring the green aspect. It was green only under normal indoor lighting or dim light. It was some kind of chartreuse.

I might have guessed that the passage of 50 years would age the pigments in some unpredictable way, and possibly make the surviving garments reliably green now because the yellow pigment deteriorated. But we have evidence that the green-to-yellow effect survives to this day. A flashbulb brings out the yellow aspect in a Shatner costume:

http://www.startrekpropauthority.com/2009/03/star-trek-exhibition-in-detroit.html

In a separate issue, I don't know if the publicity still you posted is perfectly color-accurate. There are quite a few links in the chain between snapping a film photo back then and ending up with a scan online now. Nimoy's blue doesn't look perfectly right to me; maybe it's a bit dark and going almost purple. I can't even say. Who's to say my monitor is accurate? Exact colors in photos, and scans of photos, are ephemeral and easily knocked off their true shades.

 

[alchemist]

I accept everything you're saying, but it should also be noted that the "green" dye Theiss used had a yellow component that came out strongly under bright studio lights or sunlight, obscuring the green aspect. It was green only under normal indoor lighting or dim light. It was some kind of chartreuse.

I might have guessed that the passage of 50 years would age the pigments in some unpredictable way, and possibly make the surviving garments reliably green now because the yellow pigment deteriorated. But we have evidence that the green-to-yellow effect survives to this day. A flashbulb brings out the yellow aspect in a Shatner costume:

http://www.startrekpropauthority.com/2009/03/star-trek-exhibition-in-detroit.html

As you suggest, the dyes have likely altered their molecular composition as a result of exposure to oxygen, the chemicals used to clean the fabrics, light, etc. Thus, it's probable that the colors of the fabrics we see today aren't the same as they were when they were photographed decades ago. As examples of these color changes, see here (a striking example) and here.* With regards to the latter link, note the green portions of the command tunic in the pictures under 4, 5, and 9 (in particular, note the green areas amongst the braids). This leads to the conjecture that the color of the command tunic may now be more yellow (or reddish) than it used to be.

*I'm just looking at the pictures in the links and the page excerpts from the Profiles in History auction. Also, as you mention, there are a lot of steps in the sequence of taking a photograph of an object and then getting it to appear on a computer monitor. However, the photos seem to be internally consistent (e.g., both green and gold appear in the same photo, both blue-ish and purple appear in the same photo), and I find it hard to believe that Profiles in History would make such an egregious error in their photography.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Regarding the article Capt.Mac cited above, with all the elaborate theoretical explanations for the color issue:
http://www.startrek.com/article/shirts-and-skins-in-tos

I'd like to point out that the Eastman Kodak film used for Star Trek had no trouble finding the green in anything else, but when the Command tunic is shot in bright light, we're supposed to think the film stock is making it yellow, because suddenly this film can't see green. Baloney. The film stock captured colors accurately, as the eye would see it:
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x03/The_Paradise_Syndrome_006.JPG

but later CBS Digital "fixed" that problem by shifting the color electronically:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x03hd/theparadisesyndromehd0021.jpg

 

[Phaser Two]

I never noticed the fading, but you can see that the extra dry cleanings shrank the stars' uniforms:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x08hd/mirihd025.jpg

It's an odd case where the guy playing a security guard has a better fitting costume than William Shatner.

Enh, dunno, I actually think the guards' shirts look too big in that shot. And don't get me started on Rand not having a tricorder, which has always bugged me.

 

[Phaser Two]

In a separate issue, I don't know if the publicity still you posted is perfectly color-accurate.

It isn't; I've seen an "original" (meaning, a version printed or generated around that time) of that photo in a private collection (which I assume was authentic - I am no photography expert and didn't ask) and while Kirk's tunic didn't look as gold as it did on screen, it didn't look as lime as it does in the still above, either.

And following up something I raised upthread, I have now examined a load of images from both halves of "In A Mirror, Darkly" and still can't find a single gold shirt. I might be missing something, though, and watching the eps would be better. But if I'm right, I wonder if they put Archer in green, Montgomery in red, and avoided putting anyone else (it would have had to have been an extra because there were no other command division personnel among the regular cast) in gold because of the well-known case of Gold v. Green?

 

[alchemist]

It isn't; I've seen an "original" (meaning, a version printed or generated around that time) of that photo in a private collection (which I assume was authentic - I am no photography expert and didn't ask) and while Kirk's tunic didn't look as gold as it did on screen, it didn't look as lime as it does in the still above, either.

I think you have to be careful about being "black and white" (bad pun intended) that the color film and photographs of that era have absolutely preserved their images over time. I have thousands of TOS publicity stills, transparencies and slides and, almost without exception, the color ones have now shifted their colors, mostly towards the red. What I continually find surprising is that even the color photographs have shifted, and I have some that are noticeably magenta. Interestingly, the negatives have held up better, due to the film stock, but even they have warmed a little.

I wish the photographers back then had photographed some of their subjects with color checker cards but, alas, they didn't. That would have been so helpful today.

 

[johnnybear]

I've seen great differences in photos that I took back in the nineties when I ordered a second set for a family member or friend! Those colours are never the same!
JB

 

[Henoch]

Enh, dunno, I actually think the guards' shirts look too big in that shot. And don't get me started on Rand not having a tricorder, which has always bugged me.

Where does Rand put her Communicator or Phaser? Kirk and Spock hide their Communicators and Phaser Ones under their shirts...

 

[Kor]

Were the yellow shades the same in the two pilots as the series proper?

This is something I would like to know as well.

Kor

 

[BillJ]

I'm guessing by now that most people on this site know the original command uniforms were an avocado green but due to lighting and film showed up as yellow/gold. Question: do you feel the command uniforms should be considered as intended and be avocado green or should the be considered as yellow/gold as viewed?

It is a great little piece of trivia that they are actually green, but I consider them mustard/gold since that is the way they show up on screen.

 

[Capt.Mac]

Star Trek[/I] had no trouble finding the green in anything else, but when the Command tunic is shot in bright light, we're supposed to think the film stock is making it yellow, because suddenly this film can't see green. Baloney. The film stock captured colors accurately, as the eye would see it.

Short version: It's all subjective.

Long version: The film does not record exactly what the eye sees but is an approximation. The nuances of color fidelity in the human eye are far superior. This is why there are film tests.
The Kodak negative film captured the green in the tunic, but its the print stock and duplicating prints for effects work is where the trouble lied. At the time all filming, processing and duplicating was an analog process, so subtle variances would be magnified with each generation of film used,e.g., more saturated color and losing details in the shadow and color shifts. You can see this when there is a dissolve from one scene to another.

Every professional aspect of making an episode was done to the highest standards, yet, and here's the irony, the most important link at that time which was also the weakest was the television sets of that era. Poor resolution, limited color depth, and analog reception were just a few of its problems. This was the way we saw Star Trek until rather recently with the advent of HD.

 

[Phaser Two]

Where does Rand put her Communicator or Phaser? Kirk and Spock hide their Communicators and Phaser Ones under their shirts...

Zactly; I should have been more expansive in my point. Miri asks us to believe that a Starfleet crewmember would beam down with zero equipment, as Rand did. Which was silly. What if she got separated? (Which sure enough she did.) Even that early in S1 they had enough communicators to give her one, I believe; they just had to give her a belt as well.

They got better about landing party equipment in S2 and S3, and of course I loved the pretty much permanent switchover to Phaser Two (surprise!). I also enjoyed the way that McCoy typically positioned his tricorder and medkit. And the velcro on the pants was genius.

 

[Phaser Two]

I think you have to be careful about being "black and white" (bad pun intended) that the color film and photographs of that era have absolutely preserved their images over time. I have thousands of TOS publicity stills, transparencies and slides and, almost without exception, the color ones have now shifted their colors, mostly towards the red. What I continually find surprising is that even the color photographs have shifted, and I have some that are noticeably magenta. Interestingly, the negatives have held up better, due to the film stock, but even they have warmed a little.

I wish the photographers back then had photographed some of their subjects with color checker cards but, alas, they didn't. That would have been so helpful today.

Great point. The collector with the still that I referred to above indicated he had done something to preserve the quality of the photo and others from TOS in his collection - I remember them being encased - but I don't know enough about photography to know if that would have any effect on color preservation.

And of course all of this just "highlights" (heh) the fact that color is really just how we perceive differences in visible light, and everyone sees it slightly differently.

 

[Maurice]

"Bill Theiss had just designed another uniform for me in a new red color Gene ordered, which was different from the pea-green one I wore on the first show."

Nichelle Nichols, Beyond Uhura, p.170


“It was one of those film stock things;” Theiss states, “it photographed one way - burnt orange or a gold. But in reality was another; the command shirts were definitely green.”

A STITCH IN TIME
by James Magda, 1988
^^^
That's the only quote I know of off-hand that has Theiss discussing the color problem.

So who ya gonna believe?

BTW, somewhere I posted a memo where Bob Justman describes getting shots of Sulu in front of the main viewer in his "green shirt".

 

[ZapBrannigan]

"Bill Theiss had just designed another uniform for me in a new red color Gene ordered, which was different from the pea-green one I wore on the first show."

Nichelle Nichols, Beyond Uhura, p.170


“It was one of those film stock things;” Theiss states, “it photographed one way - burnt orange or a gold. But in reality was another; the command shirts were definitely green.”

A STITCH IN TIME
by James Magda, 1988
^^^
That's the only quote I know of off-hand that has Theiss discussing the color problem.

So who ya gonna believe?

BTW, somewhere I posted a memo where Bob Justman describes getting shots of Sulu in front of the main viewer in his "green shirt".

Everything you're saying is true: the Kirk-Sulu shirt and Uhura's first uniform were green, but they were green under the normal indoor lighting that these insiders saw almost all of the time. Only when the bright studio lights were shining on them, or on location in bright sunlight, were the uniforms yellow-gold. So of course the in-person people thought of them as green.

But I still believe they really were both colors in person, irrespective of film stock issues. The flashbulb in Detroit shows that. Theiss wasn't handling his fabrics under those studio klieg lights, so he saw green. Nichelle's dressing room mirror surely had normal indoor lighting, so she saw green. But I saw yellow-gold because the show was brightly lit, and I'm sticking with that.

The Kodak negative film captured the green in the tunic, but its the print stock and duplicating prints for effects work is where the trouble lied. At the time all filming, processing and duplicating was an analog process, so subtle variances would be magnified with each generation of film used,e.g., more saturated color and losing details in the shadow and color shifts. You can see this when there is a dissolve from one scene to another.

If we go down that road, then what we saw isn't what we saw, and our beloved memories are "wrong." Unacceptable.

 

[Thanos007]

It's wasn't really a question of what we saw or why but what we "should" see. We KNOW they were green but for whatever reason we saw then as gold. The question is for canon sake what color are the shirts. I grew up believing they were gold, so regardless of Theis' and the production's intentions I say stay with gold. Especially since other in universe sources have stated they are gold.

 

[BillJ]

The question is for canon sake what color are the shirts.

Since later productions used mustard/gold, I'd say from an overall franchise perspective they are mustard/gold.

Really, TAS answers this question pretty definitively.