A few things to discuss about Kes

[DonIago]

Yeah. It's one thing to say, "what the writers did made me feel insulted" or, "it's like the writers set out to insult the audience," and something entirely different to outright accuse them of premeditation.

Even when they had Kim's parents joking about him not having been promoted, I think the writers thought they were laughing with the members of the audience who thought it was silly that Kim hadn't been promoted, and perhaps didn't realize they were just making themselves look worse in the process...or they were lampshading their own writing choices.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Yeah. It's one thing to say, "what the writers did made me feel insulted" or, "it's like the writers set out to insult the audience," and something entirely different to outright accuse them of premeditation.

Even when they had Kim's parents joking about him not having been promoted, I think the writers thought they were laughing with the members of the audience who thought it was silly that Kim hadn't been promoted, and perhaps didn't realize they were just making themselves look worse in the process...or they were lampshading their own writing choices.

Again, writers have a different view of characters than fans. Writers are not necessarily attached to characters like fans, but look at the most dramatic potential while having deadlines.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

I don't agree with this hostile interpretation of the writers.

It's one thing to say, "what the writers did made me feel insulted" or, "it's like the writers set out to insult the audience," and something entirely different to outright accuse them of premeditation.

In many circumstances, I don't either. I think that Kes being rarely mentioned in later seasons was a concession to new viewers who hadn't seen the character. And, I think that "Fury" was a display of incompetence rather than ill intent. A bit of the "Riker as Q" effect: giving the people what they thought they wanted, but actually didn't.

Even when they had Kim's parents joking about him not having been promoted, I think the writers thought they were laughing with the members of the audience who thought it was silly that Kim hadn't been promoted, and perhaps didn't realize they were just making themselves look worse in the process...or they were lampshading their own writing choices.

If they're acknowledging a poor writing choice, wouldn't correcting it makes more sense?

Again, writers have a different view of characters than fans. Writers are not necessarily attached to characters like fans, but look at the most dramatic potential while having deadlines.

But a writer owes their characters a certain realism, within the parameters of the story. You want to stick a character at ensign forever? Fine. You either make the character incompetent, or make it clear that no one can get promoted, save specifically to replace a dead superior.

 

[DonIago]

If they're acknowledging a poor writing choice, wouldn't correcting it makes more sense?

Maybe they weren't permitted to. In my various professional roles I've occasionally found myself placed in a position where I wasn't allowed to say the things I might have wanted to say.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

^ Which shows malevolent intent somewhere.

Kes's return in "Fury" seemed to me to be well-intentioned incompetence, by comparison. And B'Elanna's undeserved promotion was a desire to set a status quo rapidly.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Maybe they weren't permitted to. In my various professional roles I've occasionally found myself placed in a position where I wasn't allowed to say the things I might have wanted to say.

Yes, but even if so, that doesn't indicate malevolence. They're trying to write a story and get s script out fast. Sometimes multiple scripts, while aiming for very episodic framework.

I know us fans get passionate but the reading in of ill intent completely baffles me.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Regarding Harry, I'll move that to the indicated topic. This one should be mainly about Kes.

Malevolence or no, it's plain as pie that she was disastrously misinterpreted in "Fury". So if the writers WEREN'T trying to insult her fans, if they genuinely wanted to feature Kes again... they did a lousy job.

Maybe they should have waited, then brought back the Kes we know and love in "Shattered" instead.

 

[DonIago]

Yes, but even if so, that doesn't indicate malevolence. They're trying to write a story and get s script out fast. Sometimes multiple scripts, while aiming for very episodic framework.

I know us fans get passionate but the reading in of ill intent completely baffles me.

I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with you? My apologies if I misunderstood your post though!

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with you? My apologies if I misunderstood your post though!

Sorry, I think we're agreeing. I was try to double down on your post. My bad.

 

[Lynx]

OK, where were we now!

Think how good VOY could have been with Seven AND Kes! Assuming Kes was properly developed.

Yes, it could have been great.

And DS9 actually had 10 main characters after adding Worf. So why not VOY?

Par for the course for VOY's showrunners. You did the quiz, you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, you're right about that.
And the quiz actually told me everything.

Same thing with "Nightingale". It took me about 30m to write an ending that made sense and accommodated the people who wrote in and wondered why the @#*$! Harry was still an ensign. Doing nothing would have been easier still.

The only good thing is that many of their errors are easy to correct.
It took me five minutes to write Kes out of that "energy-being mumbo jumbo" from The Gift and give her a human lifespan and it only took me one minute to erase the damage made to the character in that episode in season 6.

Not to mention that it only took me about 10 minutes to come up with The Torpedo and Shuttle Building Team!

With a Starfleet officer who signed up, yes. A conscript, which the Maquis basically were, would need to be given SOME leeway. Maybe confine her to quarters for a few days, followed by a long talk with Chakotay, where he declares that he had wanted to make her chief engineer, but after her assault on Carey that wasn't going to happen. And unless she wanted to get to know the inside of Voyager's brig, she needed to straighten up.

I agree on that. But only if it hadn't been an almost deadly assault on Lt. Carey. That part have to be rewritten, otherise it would have taken years for her to come close to a position with a rank.

Of course. With warp particles.

Yes! That's absolutely necessary!

Given that the point of the episode was growth from bad experiences, yes. But it would have been more interesting if there was more nuance to the issue. Like "The Family Man" but in space.

Maybe, but Picard didn't strike me as a "Family Man" back then.

Ouch.

That's right!

I just hope the Founders or their lizard minions didn't notice they were recovering. They might have done something worse.

I really hope that too. That's why I would have liked a follow-up in some series or book.

Don't feel deprived. It's basically "let's make Harry look like a dork... again."

Then I didn't miss anything.

You didn't watch that episode, because it doesn't exist. It's "An Ocean Ablaze", an AU fanfiction by me.

In the canonical episode, Tom fails, the ocean is doomed to destruction, and Tom gets busted to ensign and brigged. It pretty much sucks.

I read your previous explanation for that.
I remember the Maneans and managed to find out that they were in an episode called The Voyager Conspiracy so I thought that you referred to that one.

They only gave us the first 7 years of it. The later and current Trek crew are responsible for the ensuing 24... and counting.

That doesn't surprise me since they seem to be worse than Berman and his gang.
Trek has become so utterly destructive in movies, series and books in recent years so why should they do an exception with Harry who they have ruined for 31 years?

DS9 had competent showrunners. Including perfectly executed promotions.

True! It has it's flaws like all series and there are some things in it i don't like, especially a scene in a season 7 episode. But due to the storytelling, it's probably one of the best series ever made.

This isn't a marriage. You can be polyamorous with your Trek, and appreciate different series for what they do well.

That's true.
I always have critical eyes. The same when it comes to music I like. If one of my favorite bands or artists makes something I think is crap, then I call it crap. I don't pretend to like it only because some favorite band or artist have done it.

That doesn't prove intent.

I don't agree with this hostile interpretation of the writers.

I can see your point here.

But at the same time, I can't see any other reason for them to do what they did on some occasion than downright hostility to those who dared to question something they did.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

But at the same time, I can't see any other reason for them to do what they did on some occasion than downright hostility to those who dared to question something they did.

This assumes way to much for me to take anywhere close to being factual.

 

[Guy Gardener]

OK, where were we now!


Yes, it could have been great.

And DS9 actually had 10 main characters after adding Worf. So why not VOY?

Yes, you're right about that.
And the quiz actually told me everything.

The only good thing is that many of their errors are easy to correct.
It took me five minutes to write Kes out of that "energy-being mumbo jumbo" from The Gift and give her a human lifespan and it only took me one minute to erase the damage made to the character in that episode in season 6.

Not to mention that it only took me about 10 minutes to come up with The Torpedo and Shuttle Building Team!

I agree on that. But only if it hadn't been an almost deadly assault on Lt. Carey. That part have to be rewritten, otherise it would have taken years for her to come close to a position with a rank.

Yes! That's absolutely necessary!

Maybe, but Picard didn't strike me as a "Family Man" back then.

That's right!

I really hope that too. That's why I would have liked a follow-up in some series or book.

Then I didn't miss anything.

I read your previous explanation for that.
I remember the Maneans and managed to find out that they were in an episode called The Voyager Conspiracy so I thought that you referred to that one.

That doesn't surprise me since they seem to be worse than Berman and his gang.
Trek has become so utterly destructive in movies, series and books in recent years so why should they do an exception with Harry who they have ruined for 31 years?

True! It has it's flaws like all series and there are some things in it i don't like, especially a scene in a season 7 episode. But due to the storytelling, it's probably one of the best series ever made.

That's true.
I always have critical eyes. The same when it comes to music I like. If one of my favorite bands or artists makes something I think is crap, then I call it crap. I don't pretend to like it only because some favorite band or artist have done it.

I can see your point here.

But at the same time, I can't see any other reason for them to do what they did on some occasion than downright hostility to those who dared to question something they did.

The extreme ignorance of Berman.

"Ensign is the lowest Rank."

(It is not.)

"I need to show stories from the lowest rank on the ship to the highest, some one has to be the ensign from the 7 members of the crew."

(There are 140ish crewmen on Voyager.)

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

And DS9 actually had 10 main characters after adding Worf. So why not VOY?

Only 9 of them were in the credits (Sisko, Odo, Worf, Dax, Jake, O'Brien, Quark, Bashir, and Kira in that order). But there were over a dozen more who felt like main cast members, especially late in the series.

Yes, you're right about that.
And the quiz actually told me everything.

It had 24 questions, allowing for the one I asked twice as a joke. Now it's up to 35. So when I post the reboot version, it will be even more searing.

The only good thing is that many of their errors are easy to correct.
It took me five minutes to write Kes out of that "energy-being mumbo jumbo" from The Gift and give her a human lifespan and it only took me one minute to erase the damage made to the character in that episode in season 6.

Now I want to read that story again.

Not to mention that it only took me about 10 minutes to come up with The Torpedo and Shuttle Building Team!

Which was a good concept, especially as an explanation for why Carey vanished for 5 years, only to reappear and get randomly slaughtered.

Happily, Carey's name was later seen on Voyager B's manifest, so I'm making it my head canon that Seven was able to nanite him up like she did Neelix.

I agree on that. But only if it hadn't been an almost deadly assault on Lt. Carey. That part have to be rewritten, otherise it would have taken years for her to come close to a position with a rank.

Realistically, yes. But Janeway didn't have the luxury of brigging her, dismissing her from Starfleet, and asking Starfleet for an assistant chief enginner who WOULDN'T use her colleagues as punching bags.

Maybe, but Picard didn't strike me as a "Family Man" back then.

He never got the chance, choosing to put his career first. But the potential was there.

I really hope that too. That's why I would have liked a follow-up in some series or book.

A lot of species of the week rated a follow up.

I remember the Maneans and managed to find out that they were in an episode called The Voyager Conspiracy so I thought that you referred to that one.

Just "Thirty Days". And it was incredibly satisfying to re-imagine!

Trek has become so utterly destructive in movies, series and books in recent years so why should they do an exception with Harry who they have ruined for 31 years?

I disagree with you about several series. I think PRO could have managed some fanservice scenes with Harry as a lieutenant very well. It wouldn't have been quite as satisfying as seeing him make captain in PIC, but at least it would have made all those mean-spirited memes irrelevant.

True! It has it's flaws like all series and there are some things in it i don't like, especially a scene in a season 7 episode.

Yeah, Gowron was a great character and didn't deserve that. But at least his whole species's culture wasn't run through the woke meat grinder.

But at the same time, I can't see any other reason for them to do what they did on some occasion than downright hostility to those who dared to question something they did.

This assumes way to much for me to take anywhere close to being factual.

No, there's no proof; the evidence is circumstantial... but it's there all the same.

"I need to show stories from the lowest rank on the ship to the highest, some one has to be the ensign from the 7 members of the crew."

If they had had the balls to really do that with Voyager's crew, it would have been great. Instead of having Harry the newly minted ensign be a section head, make him actual lower decks. He's not at senior staff meetings. He doesn't know everything that's going on. He's made visible at first by his growing friendship with Tom, who's still regarded with suspicion by SH and Maquis alike. Instead of promoting B'Elanna to chief engineer right off, make her spend some time struggling to keep her tenper from a more subordinate place. Can you imagine the growth in those two characters they could have generated?

And when B'Elanna does rise to prominence in Engineering, and Harry takes his place at Janeway's senior staff meetings, it makes sense and feels earned.

 

[Adventerprise]

The extreme ignorance of Berman.

"Ensign is the lowest Rank."

(It is not.)

"I need to show stories from the lowest rank on the ship to the highest, some one has to be the ensign from the 7 members of the crew."

(There are 140ish crewmen on Voyager.)

If Kim had been an enlisted crewman, having him not become an officer would be the equivalent but make more sense, yes?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Kim had been an enlisted crewman, having him not become an officer would be the equivalent but make more sense, yes?

Transitioning from enlisted to "real" officer is not an ordinarily thing.

Becoming an Officer only requires going to Academy for four years, which in a culture with out money doesn't seem that hard. A friend of mine in the army, said that they made him pay for food, his billet and his uniforms, in Officer training.

Tuvok could have been running a Starfleet Annex on the holodeck after hours, but we didn't see that.

 

[Set Harth]

If I kiss Kes, will Kes kiss?

EDIT: Or will Kes cuss if I kiss Kes?

psycho killer Kes kiss say

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

If Kim had been an enlisted crewman, having him not become an officer would be the equivalent but make more sense, yes?

I think Harry was fine as an ensign at first, he just needed to move on to bigger and better things. Just like Chekhov, Wes, Ro, Ogawa, Nog, Ezri, Tom, Lavelle, and all five of the Lower Decks crew.

Transitioning from enlisted to "real" officer is not an ordinarily thing.

But not unheard of, by any means. Officers rising from enlisted ranks are called "mustang" officers. There's no exact peecentage avzilable because it varies by service. One former CNO (head of the US Navy) that I know of was a mustang.

Becoming an Officer only requires going to Academy for four years, which in a culture with out money doesn't seem that hard. A friend of mine in the army, said that they made him pay for food, his billet and his uniforms, in Officer training.

True. But in a cashless society like the Federation, it's less problematic. In one of the novels, Simon Tarses (the ¼ Romulan from "The Drumhead") is revealed to have survived his disgrace and ultimately become an officer.

Given Voyager's situation, it would have been a simple matter for Janeway to grant a capable crewman a field commission, making him an ensign. Especially given the sheer number of officers they had lost.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think Harry was fine as an ensign at first, he just needed to move on to bigger and better things. Just like Chekhov, Wes, Ro, Obama, Nog, Ezri, Tom, Lavelle, and all five of the Lower Decks crew.

But not unheard of, by any means. Officers rising from enlisted ranks are called "mustang" officers. There's no exact peecentage avzilable because it varies by service. One former CNO (head of the US Navy) that I know of was a mustang.

True. But in a cashless society like the Federation, it's less problematic. In one of the novels, Simon Tarses (the ¼ Romulan from "The Drumhead") is revealed to have survived his disgrace and ultimately become an officer.

Given Voyager's situation, it would have been a simple matter for Janeway to grant a capable crewman a field commission, making him an ensign. Especially given the sheer number of officers they had lost.

I'm assuming that O'Brien became the Rutledge's Tactical officer officer after 70 percent of the bridge crew died on one bad day, or 7 academy trained officers in charge of O'Brien died one after the other, over the course of a month... Did O'Brien kill them?

Yeoman Rand left from the enlisted ranks, to officer, and "finally" first officer of the Excelsior, for killing Sonak. Of course we are not sure who promoted her to do that but it was obviously either the DTI or Section 31.

So yes, it happens.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

I'm assuming that O'Brien became the Rutledge's Tactical officer officer after 70 percent of the bridge crew died on one bad day, or 7 academy trained officers in charge of O'Brien died one after the other, over the course of a month... Did O'Brien kill them?

I try to ignore attempted rank continuity with O'Brien pre-DS9. It just seems like the safest course of action.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I try to ignore attempted rank continuity with O'Brien pre-DS9. It just seems like the safest course of action.

Or that Carey served on the Enterprise arm in arm as brothers with O'Brien, and he never once said to Janeway "This is not how Captain Picard would have handled this situation at all, Kathy"?