A few things to discuss about Kes

[The Hanuk Kai]

If Before and After had been the blueprint for Kes instead of a one-off, it would have been more likely reworked a bit. For instance, Ocampa-human hybrids would likely have had a longer lifespan, so Linnis would likely have still been too young to marry anyone. Problem is, they'd already played the "kid grows up super fast" card with Naomi.

I don't see that as a problem (see The Curious Case of Benjamin Button).

 

[Mage]

It still creeps me out that Harry would marry someone he first saw as the baby of his best friend and knew as a child. But that's just me.

 

[The Hanuk Kai]

It still creeps me out that Harry would marry someone he first saw as the baby of his best friend and knew as a child. But that's just me.

IDK. If they became involved, let's say, when she was 5, at a later stage of maturity, it could be a fun dynamic. I could see Harry dominated by a more mature woman.

ETA: If something about Kes doesn't work, IMO, it's the makeup. Lien complained about the effects of putting the ears on, so maybe they became wary of the more intensive makeup that would be required in later seasons. Or they decided Lien had to remain always young and beautiful, and would not explore aging makeup.

 

[Oddish]

It still creeps me out that Harry would marry someone he first saw as the baby of his best friend and knew as a child. But that's just me.

It would require a certain flexibility, that's for sure. Especially since we know from (adult) Linnis that Harry's really good with kids; he was probably a regular babysitter to her.

That being said, I reiterate: Neelix, Tom, and Harry are all honorable men. They would not, under any circumstances, exploit a vulnerable person. So Linnis was clearly capable of making a rational choice, and she chose Harry. Maybe she had to do a lot of work on him to get him to go along with it.

 

[Mage]

It would require a certain flexibility, that's for sure. Especially since we know from (adult) Linnis that Harry's really good with kids; he was probably a regular babysitter to her.

That being said, I reiterate: Neelix, Tom, and Harry are all honorable men. They would not, under any circumstances, exploit a vulnerable person. So Linnis was clearly capable of making a rational choice, and she chose Harry. Maybe she had to do a lot of work on him to get him to go along with it.

That is absolutely a fair point. Still can't shake the feeling...
In real life, an old class mate of mine had a relationship with a woman for a while, he became custodian of her underage daughter when she passed away. As soon as that girl hit 18, they became a couple....
I may have a bias when it comes to things like this.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

IDK. If they became involved, let's say, when she was 5, at a later stage of maturity, it could be a fun dynamic. I could see Harry dominated by a more mature woman.

Since the elogium happens only once between the ages of 4 and 5 they would have to have been together a little bit before then or it was a pretty last minute decision.

I wonder if the Ocampans are aware that only one child for every couple is a path to species extinction.

 

[Oddish]

I may have a bias when it comes to things like this.

I think most of us do. And that's as it should be.

Since the elogium happens only once between the ages of 4 and 5 they would have to have been together a little bit before then or it was a pretty last minute decision.

Ocampa reach physical and sexual maturity before turning 2, so there's some leeway. A quarter of a lifetime of it, for them.

Still, it would have been a major mental adjust for all the humans involved. Given that what we consider "legally adult", the Ocampa consider "your grandchildren are dead".

I wonder if the Ocampans are aware that only one child for every couple is a path to species extinction.

I wonder what the writers were thinking. Surely even they knew that one child per woman is a path to oblivion. One that Europe, Asia, and the USA are currently on.

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

Maybe.
But I still see the nine-year lifespan as highly unrealistic and contra-productive.

I understand that you really, really like Kes, but are you this passionate about everything in Trek being as realistic as you want the Ocampans to be, or is this a matter of bias towards the Kes character?
My bad if this comes off as rude; it's a legitimate question.

 

[fireproof78]

Sad but true.

And even sadder is when videos made from fan script by AI are beyter than official ones (like it is in Star Wars now).

It's not true. Fans have more time and effort to put in than professionals. Fans lack any of the deadlines that professionals have or the pressure to complete something in a limited time frame.

People dies and it's acvcepted as a part of life, yes. But i don't like to have unnecessary death scenarios thrown in my face over and over again, especially not when it comes to favorite characters.

Unfortunately unnecessary death is something I feel like is a part of Trek.

But I don't see him as a god.

Obviously but the foundational ideas that he created for Star Trek persist, especially in the TNG era. But, as with new life seeking, there is opportunity with Kes to see things from a different point of view with a shorter life span.

 

[Lynx]

I know what you mean. Harry's character was likewise destroyed, just in a different way.

Yes, but at least Harry survived which could lead to a promotion and further development in books and such (if the authors aren't too destructive or slaves to canon). Kes was uttely destroyed and no one (except me) have dared to come up wih some scenario in any book in which the destruction of the character in Tge gift and that season six episode are erased.

For harry there is always a chance for redemption while Kes forever remains destroyed.

Well, OK. But the leola root enchiladas were my idea.

I agree on that one!

Or just had her posted to another ship and been in and out. Like Terry Farrell wanted.

Or saved for another series.

I agree. In fact, Enterprise could have been a good solution. In that case Jadzia and some TNG character could have showed up in the last DS9 episode. We could also have got some information about what the Enterprise was doimng during the Dominion War. Strange that no one has written a book about what the Enterprise was doing during the war.

The Ferengi should never have been changed so much. Female equality could have been managed with a few added lines of dialogue and a rework of "Profit and Lace". But the changes added in "The Dogs of War" were unnecessary. Let the Klingons be warriors, and let the Ferengi be capitalist D-bags.

I agree about all that.

It gave me a sort of "Soviet feeling" when I watched that episode, sort of "all planets and empires must become like the Federation immediately, just like the Soviets did in Eastern europe after WWII when all the countries they occupied during the war became Communist dictatorships.

Maybe a harsh description since the Federation is actually a quite good society but ..........

Not to mention that future Trek would be boring if Klingons, Ferengis, Cardassians, Romulans and all the other would be Federation clones. We need a little tension, that's why Gowron should have remained Klingon Channcellor.

I actually wrote a proposed 8th season for DS9. It featured Sisko's return, added Weyoun to the main cast, allowed most of the departing characters to return for an episode, and resolved the "what happens when the Romulans find out they were hoodwinked" question.

Where can I find it?
And is there any chance for a Gowron come-back?

Took me about 30 to rewrite "Nightingale" to include a non-abusive Janeway, demonstrable character growth for Harry, and a way to give him that promotion that felt fresh and different. It's sad when unpaid amateurs like us can thoroughly outperform the professionals.

On the contrary, I find it quite telling and even inspiring when gifted fans can come up with better stories than Berman and his gang could.

It also shows that many of us fans care more for Star Trek and the different characters than the hired hands does.

A lot of that came from her being extremely young. She had no prejudices and far fewer preconceptions to deal with.

Yes and that made her a very intersting character.

"Before and After" shows that the Kes premise wouldn't work? I don't buy it. This is one of the strongest episodes of the first three season and a blueprint for what was to come. The actress was strong. If there were a few Harry Kim as son-in-law was perhaps a little skeevy, but it wasn't a necessary outgrowth of Kes' premise. It was just a bad choice that could have been ignored.

Jennifer Lien's acting in the episode was excellent. But the episode itself was quite weird and Kes's role was quite limited. A Kes with a human lifespan would have been much more interesting and then we wouldn't have to endure the Harry/Linnis relationship.

If Before and After had been the blueprint for Kes instead of a one-off, it would have been more likely reworked a bit. For instance, Ocampa-human hybrids would likely have had a longer lifespan, so Linnis would likely have still been too young to marry anyone. Problem is, they'd already played the "kid grows up super fast" card with Naomi.

Yes, they did and therefore another fast-growing kid was just unnecessary.
I guess that the episode was just a last desperate attempt to use the nine-year lifespan in some story.

It would have been better if they had concentrated on giving kes a human lifespan since they already had given us hints about it in Cold Fire.

IDK. If they became involved, let's say, when she was 5, at a later stage of maturity, it could be a fun dynamic. I could see Harry dominated by a more mature woman.

ETA: If something about Kes doesn't work, IMO, it's the makeup. Lien complained about the effects of putting the ears on, so maybe they became wary of the more intensive makeup that would be required in later seasons. Or they decided Lien had to remain always young and beautiful, and would not explore aging makeup.

Lien had an allergic reaction to the glue they used to attach the Ocampa ears.

As for aging makeup, it actually looked terrible when used on Trek actors. Mostly it looked like they were suffering from some sort of disease.

Since the elogium happens only once between the ages of 4 and 5 they would have to have been together a little bit before then or it was a pretty last minute decision.

I wonder if the Ocampans are aware that only one child for every couple is a path to species extinction.

The whole thing with a nine-year lifespan plus that silly one-child syndrome was downright stupid. How could they come up with such scenarios and why didn't they try to change them?

I understand that you really, really like Kes, but are you this passionate about everything in Trek being as realistic as you want the Ocampans to be, or is this a matter of bias towards the Kes character?
My bad if this comes off as rude; it's a legitimate question.

Actually a good question.

I do like when characters are realistic, not only the Ocampa.

Sometimes I cringe when I see giant space-living creatures or see Paris and Janeway be turned into lizards and then The Doctor reverse them back to normal like nothing has happened.

I have no bias against Kes as a character, it was just the life-span which was silly.

What was intersting with kes was her personality, something which could have been used even better.

It's not true. Fans have more time and effort to put in than professionals. Fans lack any of the deadlines that professionals have or the pressure to complete something in a limited time frame.


Unfortunately unnecessary death is something I feel like is a part of Trek.

Obviously but the foundational ideas that he created for Star Trek persist, especially in the TNG era. But, as with new life seeking, there is opportunity with Kes to see things from a different point of view with a shorter life span.

Fans also care more about the characters and the series itself than some of the hired writers seem to do.

Unfortunately unnecessary death seems to have become epidemic among the writers of episodes and authors of books too.

I mean, a series like NCIS at least have the decency not to kill off great characters like Tony DiNozzo, Ziva, Abby, Jack, Ellie and main character Gibbs himself when the actors wanted to leave but in Star Trek they kill off characters at random, even in recent books where there are no actors who want to quit.
I don't think that the nine-year lifespan made anyone to see anything from any different point of view. It was just a waste, a mistake which should have been corrected.