A Christmas perspective...

[Warped9]

In short: Let's put the Christ back into Christmas ...

That isn't what I was saying.

For centuries Christ wasn't even part of the end of year celebrations until the Church arbitrarily decreed it. And they also had ulterior motives in doing so.

But ever since Christ has never been out of Christmas if one chooses it to be so. It can be as religiously oriented (or not) as one wishes.

Your statement (and not anything I said) sounds as if you're saying it should be mandated. That is what the Church had long tried to do to reform the year end holiday more to their liking. But in the grander scheme of things it's a failure as people decide for themselves how to observe the holiday. It's not really an either/or situation as one is free to choose for themself.

 

[Gryffindorian]

I like Wikipedia. Google is a good resource, too.

 

[2takesfrakes]

None of those things you listed are exclusively Christian traits, however. One could also invite all those different groups or individuals to come as they are to celebrate love, peace, and good will without adding a phrase that seemingly excludes those who aren't Christian.

OK, yes, of that I am guilty. I really wasn't trying to offend anyone, with my post. I guess I'm just so caught up in Christmas, right now. In part, it might've came from my being very keen on celebrating it. And another part of it might be my own arrogance, I ... I suppose. Sometimes, I slip, without meaning to. I definitely would've rephrased myself, had I been at all objective as I wrote, at that moment. But again, I did mean well by it.

Upon further clarification you said that wasn't your intent, but that's how the phrase "Put the Christ back in Christmas" is generally used.

Perhaps I did deviate from expectation, with my "putting the Christ back into Christmas" comment, but I was using the phrase in a much broader sense than in its common useage.

 

[Warped9]

Historical and biblical studies of many stripes agree that December 25th is not likely to have been the date of Christ's birth. The exact date is not known, but historical and biblical studies point to sometime in the summer or fall as being a much more likely date.

December 25th doesn't seem to have been even mentioned until about three hundred years after Christ's birth although at the time many other dates were considered possible. But the idea of Christmas seems to have been begun appearing around that time.

When Constantine converted to Christianity there was increased interest to spread the faith and proclaiming December 25th as the date of Christ's birth was one way of attempting to reach and convert greater numbers of non Christians. Eventually and inevitably some of the pagan traditions of the time were adapted into celebrating Christ's birth. And that continues unto today in examples of putting a star or an angel at the top of the Christmas Tree and displaing the nativity sometimes at the base of the tree. The singing of religiously themed carols parallels the already existent practice of singing seasonal songs. And while the exchange of gifts is often seen as representing the gifts of the three wise men to the newborn Jesus the exchange of gifts around year's end was already a long established practice.

So it's a matter of perspective. Our familiar Christmas season is largely evolved from year end celebrations dating far back beyond the birth of Christ. But somewhere along the way, some centuries after his birth, Christianity was merged into the year end celebrations and adapted some of the rituals so that the disparate celebrations became identified as one.

 

[Squiggy]

Why? I was born closer to Christmas (12/16) than He was.

Well, I was born December 25th, so I win. Kneel before Zod.

Oh Dark Lord. What are your evil demands? Let me know so I may smote those tho need smoting in your Wretched Name.

Amen.

Furthermore, not that any of you give a holy pope, but why do we have to bribe our children into treating other people with kindness? Bribing them with presents or the threat of eternal damnation if they're not good.

Can't we just teach them that not being an asshole all the time is what productive members of society do? There's no man with a beard in the sky or man with a beard at the North Pole or fucking creeping elf on a shelf watching everything you do.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why? I was born closer to Christmas (12/16) than He was.

Well, I was born December 25th, so I win. Kneel before Zod.

Oh Dark Lord. What are your evil demands? Let me know so I may smote those tho need smoting in your Wretched Name.

Amen.

Furthermore, not that any of you give a holy pope, but why do we have to bribe our children into treating other people with kindness? Bribing them with presents or the threat of eternal damnation if they're not good.

Can't we just teach them that not being an asshole all the time is what productive members of society do? There's no man with a beard in the sky or man with a beard at the North Pole or fucking creeping elf on a shelf watching everything you do.

Get back to us when your daughter is a little bit older.

 

[Trekker4747]

Gods, the idea of the "Elf on the Shelf" is creepy.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I like Wikipedia. Google is a good resource, too.

Researching Christmas and its origins is very enlightening, and led to some changes for me and my family.

 

[Kemaiku]

If all everyone means is can we just go back to having a quiet, fun little celebration in the worst season of the year instead of crass commercialism leading us to trample each other to death for a TV and bombard the senses with horrific music and lights everywhere, fair enough.

My birthday is at the end of November, every single year of my adult life it's been overshadowed by people fangirling over Xmas far too early, because they've been shopping and decorating for about three weeks already.

Honestly, pack it in for once.

 

[Warped9]

If all everyone means is can we just go back to having a quiet, fun little celebration in the worst season of the year instead of crass commercialism leading us to trample each other to death for a TV and bombard the senses with horrific music and lights everywhere, fair enough..

The "crass commercialism" emerged hand-in-hand with the change of Christmas becoming a more family centred holiday during the 19th century. When gift giving went from largely between societal classes and more between family and friends the emerging retail businesses stepped in to provide gift ideas and ready-made gifts. The major difference is that there was no radio and television in the 19th century, but there certainly existed newspapers, magazines and advertising of different forms. The Church also bears responsibility because it is they who opted to to observe Christ's birth right in the middle of an existing celebration that was already noisy and raucus.

If one chooses to have a "quiet" Christmas and focus on family and the more religious aspects then they're best advised to avoid television and going to the stores as much as possible to minimize exposure to the "crass commercialism."


Yes, researching the history and origins of the rituals of the holidays can be very enlightening and help put what we might think we know into a larger perspective.

Despite its name Christmas is a holiday that is open to all because so much of it really isn't rooted in a specific belief or religion. It really comes down to the meaning each of us as individuals wish to ascribe to it.

 

[Avon]

around here going back to a proper traditional celebration would be to gather at some standing stones and getting massively inebriated. with none of that newfangled christianity getting in the way.

 

[Warped9]

around here going back to a proper traditional celebration would be to gather at some standing stones and getting massively inebriated. with none of that newfangled christianity getting in the way.

So you want to turn the clock back to pre 19th century times.

 

[Avon]

well, that'd be a bit further than just pre 19th century.

 

[Rincewiend]

Over here this guy is more important for the kids:

Here in Holland Christmas gift-giving is more for the adults and teens, usually with just 1 or 2 gifts like some perfume or some hi-tech gadget...
But most of all it's about "gezellig" spending the time together with a nice Christmas dinner...