A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)
- Thread starter Roshi
- Start date
Was it necessary for the plot of ST2? No. But it was central to Kirk's character arc. I love me some KM, and have no problem having it as a plot point in STXI. I don't even really seeing it as fanboyish, as was a major event that took place in the timeframe of the film.
IIRC the idea of the KM scenario was not to assess a candidate's ability to accept defeat, but to be willing to accept certain losses in order to retain a chance at the survival of his ship. It's a psychological assessment of command capability -- one of many, I'd think. And one of the few interesting ideas to emerge from that movie.
It always struck me as odd and potentially interesting that Bennett-Meyer would come up with this idea and then have Kirk refuse to accept certain losses. How he can contest the very idea behind the assessment and get away with it will be at the very least, entertaining. It sure as hell can't be "I don't like the idea of your test so I changed it," because Starfleet kept using it.
Maybe they end up including a one-in-one-million chance of getting out intact, just to satisfy the criticisms Kirk levels at them.
It always struck me as odd and potentially interesting that Bennett-Meyer would come up with this idea and then have Kirk refuse to accept certain losses. How he can contest the very idea behind the assessment and get away with it will be at the very least, entertaining. It sure as hell can't be "I don't like the idea of your test so I changed it," because Starfleet kept using it.
Maybe they end up including a one-in-one-million chance of getting out intact, just to satisfy the criticisms Kirk levels at them.
^^ I understand the KM as a test of character. It's easy being a commander when you have the upper hand. But it's how you act when you're facing defet that is more telling.
And if I'm not mistaken, the "accepting certain losses" test is from TNG. Troy took it in an episode whose name I can't remember.
And if I'm not mistaken, the "accepting certain losses" test is from TNG. Troy took it in an episode whose name I can't remember.
I always assumed it was the inverse of Ender's Game -- a constant psychological assessment that the candidates know is messing with them, and that their knowing they are being tested is part of the stress of the situation. One week the test is whether they go nuts when beaten, the next if they can sacrifice valuable crew to get the ship out of harm, the next something else, and so on. And the "KM scenario" should be different every time or else a victim would smell it from a million miles away.
The "no win scenario" would be just one of many of these tests, and thus it would be harder to argue against it -- it's just another test after all. Not the BIG, FINAL TEST.
The "no win scenario" would be just one of many of these tests, and thus it would be harder to argue against it -- it's just another test after all. Not the BIG, FINAL TEST.
Interesting if they do show the Maru test, though a tad predictable if they have Spock as the one who rats him out (when, really, the computer technicians and the people running the test would likely notice that the program was altered). It will be interesting to see if this Kirk-type speech and Academy leader will be a nod to 'Court Martial', which is a vibe I'm getting.
In my opinion, though, we'll only be seeing a Kirk take a Academy test - not specifically the same Kirk who was in Star Trek II. Therefore, O&K can play it loose on the specifics with impunity and not upset any fans (well...if such a thing is possible...).
In my opinion, though, we'll only be seeing a Kirk take a Academy test - not specifically the same Kirk who was in Star Trek II. Therefore, O&K can play it loose on the specifics with impunity and not upset any fans (well...if such a thing is possible...).
Dear me,this is a terrible sequence,GR created TOS not Nick "i bet that klingon bitch killed her own father" Meyer.the Spock ratting on him is imo a very poor plot contrivance.GR's Kirk wouldn't cheat just to satisfy his ego.He is intelligent he would know it was a test of character because no one has ever beat it.
The other main spoiler which everyone knows
Romulans going back in time to kill kirk and old Spock being present at the first voyage of the Enterprise and even meeting his younger self is also imo very poor.If the film was any good i would have loved Shatner and nimoy to bookend it.But not actually be present at the 1st mission.
I also don't think Trek appeals to a large cinema audience anyway so i think paramount are going to lose alot of money on this.
The other main spoiler which everyone knows
Romulans going back in time to kill kirk and old Spock being present at the first voyage of the Enterprise and even meeting his younger self is also imo very poor.If the film was any good i would have loved Shatner and nimoy to bookend it.But not actually be present at the 1st mission.
I also don't think Trek appeals to a large cinema audience anyway so i think paramount are going to lose alot of money on this.
. . .and then you begin to realize that were not about to get some prequel to some canon we are already intimately familiar with. We are going to get established "facts" that have been remolded and re-shaped into something familiar but decidely different. Do you not see that?
Enough crying about contrivances and circumstance. This isn't a bloody prequel.
I am ready! Bring your rukus, J.J.
Enough crying about contrivances and circumstance. This isn't a bloody prequel.
I am ready! Bring your rukus, J.J.
Yawn. Nick Mayer's contributions to the franchise are just as valid as all the other people who have shaped Star Trek over the years...
No Gene would have denounced the idea of the test, well taking at the same time taking full credit for coming up with it. Yes its a test of character and it shows Kirk in McCoys words is smart enough to take the "no win" and bring a fighting chance for life - That's the true nature of James Tiberius R. Kirk!
In the grander scheme of things I could careless what Gene Roddenberry thought about how others came up with new Trek since he basically set the model in place that would lead to it turning into a borefest to espouse his new agenda which B&B clung to out of fear of deviating from the holy writ.
Sharr
GodThingFormerly
A Different Kind of Asshole
Is there any military academy in the history of ancient or modern warfare that would waste time subjecting its cadets to a "no win" battle scenario, and then actually reward one for cheating? The KB absolutely reeks of an arbitrary invention - much like that "prefix code" idiocy later in the film - by two Hollywood parasites (Bennett and Meyer) who never even experienced boot camp let alone officer training and indoctrination.
TGT
TGT
Oh my. How clever.
You really should consider sending them an application as a writer. I'm sure they'd love you.
Sure, Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek. Nicholas Meyer and Harve Bennett merely saved it from oblivion in 1982 and incidentally made the Trek film that every subsequent entry has been judged against. And hell, people like Justman, Coon and Fontana never contributed anything to the series when it was on air.
I just don't get Roddenberry worship. The guy had a good idea, but that doesn't make him the final arbiter of what to do with that idea. The very best Star Trek ever made had virtually no input from Roddenberry and some of the more execrable episodes of the original series had his fingerprints all over them.
He had a great idea and was a fantastic pitchman, but that's all. His instincts on the Kirk character aren't the final word on the subject.
I'm not wild about the Romulan time caper either, but we don't know the details or the context. I can recall plenty of times that spoilers that have read very badly on paper turn out to be effective on the screen when viewed in the proper context. Given all the other very encouraging information from the writers and producers thus far, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
As far as I'm concerned, any Trek that has Kirk and Spock coming into contact before their Enterprise days is fanwank.
But what are you gonna do?
But what are you gonna do?
It's a poor story pitch if Abrams intended to make a movie to sell to the public. Of course, using Star Trek to tell dramatic stories hasn't been done consistently since DS9 ended (and even that was sketchy work.
Yes, "The Alternative Factor" wasn't too bad on paper, so I can't argue with that point, but none of the actors they're using have the kind of "magic" that people like DeForest Kelley or Andrew Robinson have.
Can you honestly remember a time where you didn't like their performances? I can't.
Nimoy saved the ship once in a while, but I'm not sure that they could craft a role for Spock that would be as fitting as "Unification" was.
As much as people hate to say it, he is getting old. He's in great shape, but if the story is shit, don't expect any miracles.
Making shit edible is not a job for those who begin to descend the hill.
Militant as in Military, not as in Masquerade Ball.
GodThingFormerly
A Different Kind of Asshole
Seriously. The tacky, cartoonish, masturbatory "militarism" polluting ST:TWOK would have looked far more at home in a pride march than the finely wrought speculative 23rd century of TOS and particularly TMP. Of course, those Trek producers who actually tasted combat - Roddenberry and Coon - had absolutely nothing to prove to themselves or anybody else in that regard.
TGT
Similar threads
