A certain test in Trek XI - Spoilers - (I think...)
- Thread starter Roshi
- Start date
There's nothing even a little contrived about it. It's a straightforward, clever, dramatic idea.
Of course, I would think so because I almost called it:
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Number=8402653#Post8402653
Damn, I'm good.
Of course, I would think so because I almost called it:
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Number=8402653#Post8402653
Damn, I'm good.
No, not if you listen to the discussion between Kirk & Spock in Star Trek II - Spock's speaking as if he were there. At least that's a valid interpretation of subtext in their discussion.
This makes perfect sense on a dramatic level as well. But I know it flies in the face of everyone's assumption that Kirk and Spock only knew one another the moment Kirk stepped on to the bridge or something.
And its not a contrivance if they can both logical fill those roles without going against something already established. Now if it were working around some already established fact just to make it fit then it would be.
How would you make their first meeting not "fanboyish", cause anything they picked would have been to many here?
Sharr
Didn't Kirk get a 'commendation for original thinking' ? Did they nearly expell him first? Did one of the instructors stick up for him? Did the head of SF Academy stick up for him? Or did Orci & Kurtzman not do their homework.
Personally I don't mind if they forgot the exchange between Kirk & Spock outside the simulator and what Kirk said on Regula 1, but it would be nice if they stuck to it.
Personally I don't mind if they forgot the exchange between Kirk & Spock outside the simulator and what Kirk said on Regula 1, but it would be nice if they stuck to it.
The discussion did say he got a commendation, but ah - just cause that's how it resolved itself doesn't mean that was the boards first reaction either. I'd very it highly unlikely there first inclination was to reward Kirk for cheating.
Convening a board of inquiry would likely take place under such circumstances they would have to. Spock would logically report him, but might also logically end up supporting him. Both things can be true.
Sharr
So, he goes from nearly being expelled to receiving a commendation for original thinking? Like to see how that worked out.
If this story is true, it seems a rather shallow intepretation of the whole thing. It paints the K-M as no more than a calculus test. I thought it was supposed to be more than that. Also, given Saavik was already a Lt. in TWOK, I thought this exam was for officers in the command path. Kind of a continuing training.
It also paints Kirk as a mere cheater rather than someone whose character can't accept certain defeat. That's two different things. Remember, Kirk rigged the simulation to give him only a CHANCE to win, however small that may have been. The test is unfair in his eyes. That has to be his defense.
His inability to accept a no-win situation is probably why he demanded to take the simulation a second time. When he still couldn't beat the thing, it explains why he rigged it before asking for a third try.
Being able to take the test three times was proably a luxury. Maybe it was his superiors trying to drill into an overconfident Kirk that sometimes you can't win. Either way, "cheating" on the third attempt of a test probably meant to be taken only once hardly seems like grounds for expulsion. Kirk's "test" was the first time he took it. Why count the other two the same? And, why get worked up to the point of expelling him over what he did on that THIRD attempt?
As I said, as the link describes it, it's a very cheap and shallow explanation of what went on. It actually doesn't show Kirk as a person of much character, either. Unless, of course, Kirk gives one hell of a speech.
If this story is true, it seems a rather shallow intepretation of the whole thing. It paints the K-M as no more than a calculus test. I thought it was supposed to be more than that. Also, given Saavik was already a Lt. in TWOK, I thought this exam was for officers in the command path. Kind of a continuing training.
It also paints Kirk as a mere cheater rather than someone whose character can't accept certain defeat. That's two different things. Remember, Kirk rigged the simulation to give him only a CHANCE to win, however small that may have been. The test is unfair in his eyes. That has to be his defense.
His inability to accept a no-win situation is probably why he demanded to take the simulation a second time. When he still couldn't beat the thing, it explains why he rigged it before asking for a third try.
Being able to take the test three times was proably a luxury. Maybe it was his superiors trying to drill into an overconfident Kirk that sometimes you can't win. Either way, "cheating" on the third attempt of a test probably meant to be taken only once hardly seems like grounds for expulsion. Kirk's "test" was the first time he took it. Why count the other two the same? And, why get worked up to the point of expelling him over what he did on that THIRD attempt?
As I said, as the link describes it, it's a very cheap and shallow explanation of what went on. It actually doesn't show Kirk as a person of much character, either. Unless, of course, Kirk gives one hell of a speech.
More then likely, just a guess on my part. Spock realizes The that because it is a test of character (of a commanders metal) Kirk was right and he was wrong for reporting him since as you put it it is more then a "calculus test".
Really there's no way though their first inclination would have been to reward Kirk for cheating. That kind of thing tends to be frowned on my navel like organizations. Spock will likely end up persuade the board that instead of bing punished Kirk should be noted for his original thinking.
After the whole sordid mess - Spock tries to get closer to Kirk. (I have a vague memory of this very thing being in a book...) but they are off on different assignments until they meet agian at some other point in time.
No matter how you slice it, he cheated plain and simple. That alone is being a mere cheater even if he added an option to let him win which isn't normally there. And Spock will start to see the wisdom of his defense... I assure you.
Cause its a test, regardless of how many times he's taken it even on the third time its still a test. Even if he wasn't being evaluated (and each time he went in he likely was being *tested* they wouldn't waste their time otherwise letting him do it)
The link is pretty broad without details.
Look, the mere fact that they included his Kobayashi Maru makes it FANBOY.
It's a reference to SPECIFIC, previously established (though post-TOS) continuity.
Is it NECESSARY to the story? Probably no more than it was in ST:2. Is it NECESSARY to the fanbase? Oh, HELLS yeah! Even casual fans will recognize it after 25 years in the "public consciousness".
It's a reference to SPECIFIC, previously established (though post-TOS) continuity.
Is it NECESSARY to the story? Probably no more than it was in ST:2. Is it NECESSARY to the fanbase? Oh, HELLS yeah! Even casual fans will recognize it after 25 years in the "public consciousness".
Spock in ST2: "As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?"
Ok, I forgot that bit, and I suppose if one was to retro-interpret the line as almost sarcastic given what may end up being his considerable role in the event, then one could rationalize it. Previous to this Trek XI plot point, I think the line was simply to be taken as Spock's knowing what Kirk did in the past, not any actual involvement.
I still see it as a contrivance (why must the big 3 just *happen* to have been so involved with each other?), but I guess this is all speculative until popcorn is in our laps.
Ok, I forgot that bit, and I suppose if one was to retro-interpret the line as almost sarcastic given what may end up being his considerable role in the event, then one could rationalize it. Previous to this Trek XI plot point, I think the line was simply to be taken as Spock's knowing what Kirk did in the past, not any actual involvement.
I still see it as a contrivance (why must the big 3 just *happen* to have been so involved with each other?), but I guess this is all speculative until popcorn is in our laps.
I think the whole idea of the Kobayashi Maru test is ridiculous anyway. The military doesn't want to teach its officers how to fail, it wants to teach them how to succeed.
The Kobayashi Maru is one piece of Trek history that needs to be played down, not included and expanded upon in a new movie.
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Very likely, yes it is - I'm betting it propels the story forward. Not that "necessary" has anything to do with works of fiction EVER since its all about artistic choice.
I love this: Fans set it up so no matter what - they're right the creators/producers are wrong (not just this movie). If they didn't include stuff like this people'd be bitching "Why not do X?" or "They're ignoring tid bits of information." but when they do "throw something at the fans" its "bankrupt" or "wrong". It really makes me laugh and cry all at once.
Sharr
There was a time I thought I was becoming disillusioned with "Star Trek", the franchise - the more I go ahead I realize its my disillusionment with fandom that has spilled over as a sour taste in my mouth regarding "Star Trek". Which is an achievement because I'm a huge scifi geek.
Sharr
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