725m Enterprise

[I-Am-Zim]

TOS didn't have a warp speed effect at all. Is that an alternate universe? Is that a different drive to Enterprise that came back again for TNG? Again it comes down to how literally you take visual effects. I think you, and a few others, take them far too seriously.

If Nero's drill disrupts communications and transporters, it's easy to believe it does the same to sensors - after all without sensors one cannot aim the transporter and one cannot detect vessels to communicate with.

No dialogue suggests that the sensors were disrupted by the drill. However, there is dialogue that specifically states that transporters and communications are disrupted by the drill. If you're going to assume that the sensors are disrupted by the drill without any evidence to back it up, then why not assume that the TOS Enterprise had the same stretched-starfield effect that the NX-01 had (oh, and the TOS Defiant from "In A Mirror, Darkly")? I mean, since we're making assumptions and all?

 

[F. King Daniel]

That's the difference. I'm willing to suspend disbelief and enjoy whatever Star Trek I'm watching. I'll happily notice and point out mistakes, altered premises and new special effects but I know better than to assume each requires some "in-universe" reason.

Star Trek has changed so many things over the years and come up with so much utter nonsense (Genesis, "Spock's Brain", "Threshold", the Hobus supernova) that claiming this latest version of Trek is somehow less valid than the rest because of this latest round of changes is stupid.

The entire Klingon species were entirely changed between TOS and TNG. Not just their looks but their entire ethos and way of life. None of the changes in STXI were anywhere close to that big (and yes, there were furious TOS Klingon fans in 1979 after TMP premiered).

 

[I-Am-Zim]

The difference between the changes that have been made throughout the history of Trek up to now and what they did in STXI is that previous Trek followed a forward progression of time and technology within its own universe. NuTrek, however takes place in an alternate universe and rewrites everything all the way back to TOS. This has never happened in Star Trek before. No other series has attempted to re-write the original. They're essentially starting the Star Trek franchise up again from scratch. New adventures for Kirk and Spock. New ship. New Romulans. New Klingons. New everything. That's why I have a problem with JJ-Trek. TOS stood just fine on its own. It didn't need rebooting. They tried to fix something that wasn't broken. Instead of coming up with something truely original, they decided to take what was already established and spit on it, stomp on it, pee on it, wad it up, and throw it in the sewer so they could do it "their" way instead. And on top of that, the writing is absolutely horrendous, the dialogue is at times cheesy as hell, there are way too many Star Wars references, and the plot has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese. I, personally, like my Star Trek: The Original Series exactly the way it is. Thank you very much. And since we were told to forget what we knew, and that this wasn't our fathers' Star Trek, then that pretty much means that it's not "my" Star Trek. That's why I haven't watched the movie in months. I just can't sit through it. NuKirk needs his arrogant ass kicked. NuSpock just needs some sense slapped into him. NuUhura needs to learn how to act like a professional and quit leaving her post every five minutes to play kissy-face with her superior officer. NuSulu needs to learn how to drive. NuChekov shouldn't even be there. NuScotty needs to lay off the crack and calm down. Keenser needs to get run over by a truck. The only character that worked for me was Bones. I think that DeForrest Kelley would be proud of him. He did a great job with the character.

I hate the iBridge. I hate Hate HATE the Fuglyprise. I Hate-to-infinity budgineernig.

Oh man, do I ever need a hobby. I just hate the Abramsverse in general. It's not my Star Trek, and never will be. I am a TOS fan. That's just the way I feel about it. Abrams has ruined any possible joy I may have derived from any future installment of Star Trek. At least until CBS decides to do something in the old universe. Oh well, I guess I'll go home and watch some TOS-R. Live long and prosper.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the sensing of starships on orbit of nearby planets, STXI seems perfectly consistent with the rest of the lot. Our heroes can always detect active starships at significant distance, probably because warp fields are "unnatural", high energy phenomena that really stick out. Yet to spot a derelict, our heroes always slow down to sublight.

Nero's jamming may or may not have had an effect on the Starfleet sensors - but such an effect is not necessary from the cross-series or cross-movies consistency point of view. Ships at warp have never been good at sensing small detail; even though they can sometimes make sweeping assessments of distant planets even while at high warp, these don't appear to be realtime, because our heroes have often failed to notice that entire planets have been turned to rubble in the target system. Star Trek did "Alderaan is not there" before George Lucas did, in "Doomsday Machine", and has stayed consistent with that concept ever since.

(What's this about stars being invisible from the nuE at warp, BTW? There seem to be perfectly nice starstreaks behind Chekov and Sulu when they declare the ship has reached maximum warp. They just happen to be out of focus, as per the overall artistic choices of this movie.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Regarding the sensing of starships on orbit of nearby planets, STXI seems perfectly consistent with the rest of the lot. Our heroes can always detect active starships at significant distance, probably because warp fields are "unnatural", high energy phenomena that really stick out. Yet to spot a derelict, our heroes always slow down to sublight.

Compared to TOS? Not exactly. Can you name an instance where the Enterprise in TOS dropped out of warp and suddenly had to dodge space debris or another ship because they couldn't see it on warp approach? (In ST:XI, given the short time frame, I doubt that the destroyed ships even got a chance to cool down so they should've still been visible as "high energy" on sensors.)

From what can be seen in ST:XI, they seem to be able to track objects at warp but not really see where they are going. It is more similar to Star Wars' Hyperdrive in operation and detection.

Nero's jamming may or may not have had an effect on the Starfleet sensors - but such an effect is not necessary from the cross-series or cross-movies consistency point of view. Ships at warp have never been good at sensing small detail;

But in TOS, they were good enough to spot dust and debris left over from the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while scanning at warp (and tracking the cloaked ships motion).

even though they can sometimes make sweeping assessments of distant planets even while at high warp, these don't appear to be realtime, because our heroes have often failed to notice that entire planets have been turned to rubble in the target system. Star Trek did "Alderaan is not there" before George Lucas did, in "Doomsday Machine", and has stayed consistent with that concept ever since.

That isn't the case for "Doomsday Machine". The Enterprise is searching for the Constellation and in each case they detected the destruction level of the star system as they entered the "limits of the system" which is vague enough in speed and distance to be either the outer planet orbit or the heliopause which could be 50-200 AU from the system star. The Enterprise was still able to find the Constellation near where the 3rd planet use to be from the "limit of the system".

It definitely is not the "Alderaan example" where they are "popping out warp" and almost colliding with debris. There are no navigation surprises.

For at least TOS, at warp they were able to see what was around them and respond to things getting in their way even if it was last minute, not on the chart stuff (like the planet Gothos).

I dunno about TNG+, so you could be right about those later series though

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Regarding the sensing of starships on orbit of nearby planets, STXI seems perfectly consistent with the rest of the lot. Our heroes can always detect active starships at significant distance, probably because warp fields are "unnatural", high energy phenomena that really stick out. Yet to spot a derelict, our heroes always slow down to sublight.

Compared to TOS? Not exactly. Can you name an instance where the Enterprise in TOS dropped out of warp and suddenly had to dodge space debris or another ship because they couldn't see it on warp approach?

AFAIK, there's no record of the Enterprise ever having to dodge anything at any time, even when warping through the debris field in "The Doomsday Machine." The singular exception is probably "Mudd's Women" which is wildly inconsistent since the Enterprise appears to enter the asteroid field without actually slowing down to sublight speeds (early TOS, though, WAS incredibly inconsistent with its depiction of warp drive anyway).

In ST:XI, given the short time frame, I doubt that the destroyed ships even got a chance to cool down so they should've still been visible as "high energy" on sensors.

Don't confuse "high energy" with "high heat." A warp field can be called "high energy" because it's being produced by a matter-antimatter reactor putting out TERAWATTS of energy in titanic blasts of gravimetric distortion. Next to that, the hull of a starship that was on fire thirty seconds ago might as well be a zippo.

From what can be seen in ST:XI, they seem to be able to track objects at warp but not really see where they are going. It is more similar to Star Wars' Hyperdrive in operation and detection.

I thought in Star Wars you couldn't track a ship that was in hyperdrive?

No matter; I think it's subtly implied in past Trek that warp fields are much easier to spot than stationary objects at ANY speed, so much so that a starship (like the Enterprise-E) can stay close to a stationary object (like the moon) and thereby avoid detection (from the Vulcans). Likewise, the Vulcans never would have noticed the Phoenix flying around the solar system UNLESS it was at warp. Even sublight speeds with its warp core powered up wouldn't be enough unless they got alot closer to it.

Lastly, there's that crucial scene from "Best of Both Worlds."

RIKER: Slow to impulse. Take us to the battle coordinates, Mister Crusher. Yellow alert.
WORF: Sensors are picking up several vessels, Captain.
RIKER: The fleet?
DATA: No active subspace fields. Negligible power readings.
RIKER: Life signs?
DATA: Negative, sir.
WORF: Visual contact.
RIKER: On screen.
< Dun dun dun! Dead starships >

Enterprise couldn't even detect the fleet until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp and approached the battle coordinates, and even then they only detected "several vessels," probably identifiable as such by their composition and density. Significant is what Worf is scanning for: subspace fields and power readings, either of which would be important for determining what the fleet is doing, but apparently can't be detected from a distance.

But in TOS, they were good enough to spot dust and debris left over from the destroyed outposts in "Balance of Terror" while scanning at warp (and tracking the cloaked ships motion).

Again, early TOS, where it is possible to fly through a comet at warp speed without instantly passing through it.

Come to think of it, things didn't get any better even in later TOS, where a Klingon warship at "better than warp seven" closes on the nearly stationary Enterprise at what is, in fact, less than a third the speed of light.

There isn't much you can take from TOS in this case since alot of its science was somewhat badly developed (I know alot of the purists will complain bitterly about me saying this, but let's face it, the 1960s had MUCH lower standards than we do). Precedent from TNG onwards suggests you have to drop out of warp and get close to something in order to figure out what's going on with it; this is, evidently, what they had to do in "The Neutral Zone," the one situation that closely matches the TOS instance.

That isn't the case for "Doomsday Machine". The Enterprise is searching for the Constellation and in each case they detected the destruction level of the star system as they entered the "limits of the system" which is vague enough in speed and distance to be either the outer planet orbit or the heliopause which could be 50-200 AU from the system star. The Enterprise was still able to find the Constellation near where the 3rd planet use to be from the "limit of the system".

But they still had to ENTER the system in order to locate it. Depending on how that episode meant their speed to be interpreted, they also had to drop to sublight as well.

It definitely is not the "Alderaan example" where they are "popping out warp" and almost colliding with debris. There are no navigation surprises.

There never are in TOS, where--once again--warp drive is never depicted as being particularly special and is at best "faster than impulse."

 

[blssdwlf]

AFAIK, there's no record of the Enterprise ever having to dodge anything at any time, even when warping through the debris field in "The Doomsday Machine." The singular exception is probably "Mudd's Women" which is wildly inconsistent since the Enterprise appears to enter the asteroid field without actually slowing down to sublight speeds (early TOS, though, WAS incredibly inconsistent with its depiction of warp drive anyway).

If they have the deflectors to do so in TOS to enter an asteroid field at warp, why not?

Now don't confuse seeing something coming far away at warp and "dodging" with popping out of warp blind to what is waiting for you at sublight and having to dodge at the last second.

TOS usually can spot obstacles in the way while at warp well before having to perform some evasive maneuver so they were rarely surprised. The only times I recall being surprised at warp by something at sublight were in "The Immunity Syndrome" upon detecting the black energy area in its path, the planet Gothos that just appeared near its flight path in "The Squire of Gothos". In Gothos, they didn't have to immediately dodge because they were only passing near it but veered off anyway just to avoid the subspace interference.

As far as TOS' depiction of warp drive, the series was consistent with itself, just not with TNG and later series

Don't confuse "high energy" with "high heat." A warp field can be called "high energy" because it's being produced by a matter-antimatter reactor putting out TERAWATTS of energy in titanic blasts of gravimetric distortion. Next to that, the hull of a starship that was on fire thirty seconds ago might as well be a zippo.

True - this is ST:XI where the rules are different.

Although take for example the Reliant in TWOK where it is burning a trail for minutes...

I thought in Star Wars you couldn't track a ship that was in hyperdrive?

LOL, that's a debate for another time

No matter; I think it's subtly implied in past Trek that warp fields are much easier to spot than stationary objects at ANY speed, so much so that a starship (like the Enterprise-E) can stay close to a stationary object (like the moon) and thereby avoid detection (from the Vulcans).

Okay, just venturing into TNG territory here. Wouldn't it also be possible that the Enterprise-E was actively shielding itself from the Vulcan ship's detection?

For comparison in TWOK, when the Enterprise got back some of her sensors, she was able to track and sneak around the Reliant despite both being on the opposite sides of Regula.

Likewise, the Vulcans never would have noticed the Phoenix flying around the solar system UNLESS it was at warp. Even sublight speeds with its warp core powered up wouldn't be enough unless they got alot closer to it.

Probably so for TNG.

Lastly, there's that crucial scene from "Best of Both Worlds."

Enterprise couldn't even detect the fleet until AFTER they'd dropped out of warp and approached the battle coordinates, and even then they only detected "several vessels," probably identifiable as such by their composition and density. Significant is what Worf is scanning for: subspace fields and power readings, either of which would be important for determining what the fleet is doing, but apparently can't be detected from a distance.

Well, then you've illustrated the biggest difference between TOS and TNG

Again, early TOS, where it is possible to fly through a comet at warp speed without instantly passing through it.

There are so many things that are made "possible" in TOS that you'd hurt yourself trying to make it adhere to modern science

Come to think of it, things didn't get any better even in later TOS, where a Klingon warship at "better than warp seven" closes on the nearly stationary Enterprise at what is, in fact, less than a third the speed of light.

You're referring to "Elaan of Troyius" where we're never sure when the Klingon is at warp and when they're at sublight. We only know that the initial approach is at warp 6+ but at some point the ship is implied to slow down as Sulu counts down the range in 10,000km increments. We know Spock on a later pass says they're "better than Warp 7" but no range is called out. And we also know that the Klingon ship parallels the Enterprise near the end so we know the Klingon speeds can be sublight as well.

As far as consistency goes, I can say that TOS when using warp *in a star system* the speeds are far slower than when traveling between systems. This is evident in "Operation: Annihilate", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", probably "Elaan of Troyius", and ST4:The Voyage Home.

There isn't much you can take from TOS in this case since alot of its science was somewhat badly developed (I know alot of the purists will complain bitterly about me saying this, but let's face it, the 1960s had MUCH lower standards than we do).

That's your take on it. But we're not looking at comparing real-world science to TOS since no scifi show (TNG, etc included) will compare favorably to what we know today. Of course the point is that TOS did things differently than in TNG.

Precedent from TNG onwards suggests you have to drop out of warp and get close to something in order to figure out what's going on with it; this is, evidently, what they had to do in "The Neutral Zone," the one situation that closely matches the TOS instance.

So the E-D got to the edge of the star system and was able to scan the planet or did they have to drop out into orbit to make the determination?

There never are in TOS, where--once again--warp drive is never depicted as being particularly special and is at best "faster than impulse."

I find that a good thing in recognizing that TOS isn't like TNG, IMHO.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

True - this is ST:XI where the rules are different.

It has nothing to do with different rules. In TNG we're told that the Enterprise' warp core has a power output in the billions of megawatts. Put that in perspective: that one ship produces more energy per second than the entire human race for the past eight thousand years. THAT fits the relative definition of "high energy" that would be visible to a long range sensor even from interstellar distances, especially if most of that energy is being manifested as a concentrated distortion of space time, like a warp field.

Compare that energy output with, say, a modern warship catching fire in an ocean somewhere. It's not even a fair comparison; it's like looking for a lit cigarette on the surface of the sun. Starships aren't likely to be much hotter than that when the only thing heating them is the residual heat from the explosions that wrecked them in the first place.

Okay, just venturing into TNG territory here. Wouldn't it also be possible that the Enterprise-E was actively shielding itself from the Vulcan ship's detection?

I suppose it's possible, but Worf's EXACT words were "The Moon's gravitational pull obscured our warp signature. The Vulcans did not detect us."

For comparison in TWOK, when the Enterprise got back some of her sensors, she was able to track and sneak around the Reliant despite both being on the opposite sides of Regula.

Both at sublight speed, yes. I doubt this would have been possible if Enterprise were swinging through the system at warp speeds.

Of course the point is that TOS did things differently than in TNG.

It appears TOS did things differently from all other Trek series in history, which have otherwise been consistent with TNG. Even the Movie era is more similar to TNG than the original series, where as early as TMP the jump to warp speed is considered to be a quantum leap over impulse power that changes a great deal about how the ship maneuvers and functions (even changes the color of the deflector dish, and would have involved alot of flashy pyrotechnics between the nacelles if GR had his way).

So the E-D got to the edge of the star system and was able to scan the planet or did they have to drop out into orbit to make the determination?

Both times they had to drop out of warp; the determinations were made while at impulse power, which is also where they were intercepted by the Romulans.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just a thought: If STXI ships truely were sensor-blind at warp, then when Nero persued the Jellyfish into warp they would have never known when the Jellyfish dropped out and would have overshot. Instead they appeared right behind, dropping out seconds apart.

Making any version of Trek fit in with any of the others requires suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer - otherwise the entire canon comes crashing down on James R. Kirk's gravestone. How people will happily accept TMP as legit (bumpy-headed Klingons, lava lamp engine room, Star Wars lightspeed-style FX, new transporter effects, no warp in a solar system etc) and not STXI is beyond me.

 

[blssdwlf]

Just a thought: If STXI ships truely were sensor-blind at warp, then when Nero persued the Jellyfish into warp they would have never known when the Jellyfish dropped out and would have overshot. Instead they appeared right behind, dropping out seconds apart.

True. I realized that in post 31. They must have the minimum ability to track another ship that is at warp although it isn't shown whether they know what lies waiting for them once they drop out (other than the Vulcan scene where they drop into a mess.) We'll see what ST:XII holds for their way of doing things...

Making any version of Trek fit in with any of the others requires suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer - otherwise the entire canon comes crashing down on James R. Kirk's gravestone. How people will happily accept TMP as legit (bumpy-headed Klingons, lava lamp engine room, Star Wars lightspeed-style FX, new transporter effects, no warp in a solar system etc) and not STXI is beyond me.

Pfft. You had me at "bumpy-headed Klingons"

But the other technical examples you listed, like "no warp in system" don't fly as we know it was because they were using the untested new engines (which also addresses the lava lamp engine room LOL). And as mentioned in another post, the new FX follows new camera moves. Whenever they used camera moves akin to TOS, the FX were like TOS.

Now as far as I'm concerned, everything filmed (TV too) is canon, but they don't have to be on the same continuity, IMHO. And that works too for "suspension of disbelief" as that concept has been introduced in TOS ("Alternate Factor", "Mirror,Mirror") and most pointingly in TNG's "Parallels" and I'm going to guess in the other series as well.

 

[blssdwlf]

Compare that energy output with, say, a modern warship catching fire in an ocean somewhere. It's not even a fair comparison; it's like looking for a lit cigarette on the surface of the sun. Starships aren't likely to be much hotter than that when the only thing heating them is the residual heat from the explosions that wrecked them in the first place.

Fair enough. So, in STXI, would the Enterprise's long range sensors pick up 6 or 7 warp cores (possibly even more given how many the E was packing) exploding as they were approaching Vulcan?

Okay, just venturing into TNG territory here. Wouldn't it also be possible that the Enterprise-E was actively shielding itself from the Vulcan ship's detection?

I suppose it's possible, but Worf's EXACT words were "The Moon's gravitational pull obscured our warp signature. The Vulcans did not detect us."

Yeah, I thought so but then how far away does the gravitational obscuring effect reach? Is it just that simple to be between the Earth and Moon for this to work since the E-E beams up Picard in that scene.

Even the Movie era is more similar to TNG than the original series, where as early as TMP the jump to warp speed is considered to be a quantum leap over impulse power that changes a great deal about how the ship maneuvers and functions

Perhaps from movie 7 and onwards but its less obvious in the first 5. The 6th, could go either way. We've never had a camera follow a ship "jump to warp" in TOS so there isn't a point to compare here. But the Enterprise-V'Ger intercept (TMP), the Reliant-Enterprise meetup (TWOK), the Enterprise escaping Excelsior (TSFS), the BOP warping out from Earth to time-warp (TVH), the Enterprise escaping the torpedo (TFF) are much closer to TOS than anything in TNG or later.

 

[Unicron]

I forget, were the E-D's sensors damaged in BOBW with the deflector attack? Or did that only damage the deflector and warp systems? Just wondering since naturally that would count for something in the dialogue mentioned.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Compare that energy output with, say, a modern warship catching fire in an ocean somewhere. It's not even a fair comparison; it's like looking for a lit cigarette on the surface of the sun. Starships aren't likely to be much hotter than that when the only thing heating them is the residual heat from the explosions that wrecked them in the first place.

Fair enough. So, in STXI, would the Enterprise's long range sensors pick up 6 or 7 warp cores (possibly even more given how many the E was packing) exploding as they were approaching Vulcan?

Probably, IF the warp cores had exploded. We've somehow gotten used to a core breach being so common that starships can explode like supernovas whenever some intern spills coffee on a computer console. I'm inclined to think those antimatter pods are probably pretty damned robust and will likely survive even if the ship is destroyed (they're designed to, after all).

Besides, if all six warp cores had exploded within seconds of each other, there wouldn't have BEEN a debris field for Enterprise to fly trough, the massive blast of energy would have vaporized all six ships and probably a good chunk of Vulcan along with them.

We've never had a camera follow a ship "jump to warp" in TOS so there isn't a point to compare here.

We sort of have if you count TOS-R.

But the Enterprise-V'Ger intercept (TMP), the Reliant-Enterprise meetup (TWOK), the Enterprise escaping Excelsior (TSFS), the BOP warping out from Earth to time-warp (TVH), the Enterprise escaping the torpedo (TFF) are much closer to TOS than anything in TNG or later.

In what way? Take that first scene from Encounter at Farpoint where Enterprise-D blows into warp to escape from Q and compare it to all the scenes you just mentioned. Even Enterprise escaping the torpedo in TFF is amazingly similar to the asteroid escape from The Naked Now.

 

[blssdwlf]

Besides, if all six warp cores had exploded within seconds of each other, there wouldn't have BEEN a debris field for Enterprise to fly trough, the massive blast of energy would have vaporized all six ships and probably a good chunk of Vulcan along with them.

Hmm - maybe, maybe not. Wouldn't the Kelvin sacrificing herself in the beginning and throw her warp core in along the explosion? And if so, perhaps this massive blast of energy in ST:XI might not be powerful enough to damage Vulcan as you've described?

We've never had a camera follow a ship "jump to warp" in TOS so there isn't a point to compare here.

We sort of have if you count TOS-R.

No simply because the production crew/management that did these effects for TOS-R are the same for TNG.

Edit: And after seeing what they've done (which for the most is good technically) they did it with the same TNG/Voyager/Ent thought process in a couple of cases ignored the dialogue itself. So, no. Not counting TOS-R as TOS, but consider TOS-R as another continuity

But the Enterprise-V'Ger intercept (TMP), the Reliant-Enterprise meetup (TWOK), the Enterprise escaping Excelsior (TSFS), the BOP warping out from Earth to time-warp (TVH), the Enterprise escaping the torpedo (TFF) are much closer to TOS than anything in TNG or later.

In what way? Take that first scene from Encounter at Farpoint where Enterprise-D blows into warp to escape from Q and compare it to all the scenes you just mentioned. Even Enterprise escaping the torpedo in TFF is amazingly similar to the asteroid escape from The Naked Now.

Or that the TFF and TSFS warp escapes are what an exterior camera would have seen if they were in TOS "The Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident". The two TNG examples you mentioned are not anything different than what has been done in TOS.

 

[blssdwlf]

I forget, were the E-D's sensors damaged in BOBW with the deflector attack? Or did that only damage the deflector and warp systems? Just wondering since naturally that would count for something in the dialogue mentioned.

Unfortunately, the dialogue doesn't mention any sensor damage. The one instance where there might be, the dialogue indicated that the aft shield sensor was ok.

 

[Unicron]

Cool. Clearly they still had communications and similar systems and I'm pretty sure my memory's accurate about the shields and warp being damaged. I've had to work the past couple days, so I was too tired to check on YouTube.

 

[Cicero]

Just a thought: If STXI ships truely were sensor-blind at warp, then when Nero persued the Jellyfish into warp they would have never known when the Jellyfish dropped out and would have overshot. Instead they appeared right behind, dropping out seconds apart.

True. I realized that in post 31. They must have the minimum ability to track another ship that is at warp although it isn't shown whether they know what lies waiting for them once they drop out (other than the Vulcan scene where they drop into a mess.)

I concluded the same when looking at Star Trek's basic technologies recently. It appears that starship sensors are able to detect faster-than-light objects faster-than-light, but otherwise are capable of only lightspeed operation. Subspace communication similarly operates faster-than-light.

This would explain why ships often drop to sublight to engage small targets - like the Enterprise versus the Narada's torpedoes in last year's film. Subspace communications are, of course, faster-than-light.

 

[Timo]

The issue of "Alderaan dodging" would be greatly dependent on the speeds involved, I guess. In "Doomsday", Kirk approached with some caution (or at least he did so in the final system he surveyed, we don't know what he did with the others), but in STXI the Enterprise emerged from maximum warp with maximum haste. That latter approach would probably help cut up to several hours from the trip - the sublight ones from system fringes to the target planet, as in "Best of Both Worlds" - but it would also make it impossible to have dialogue on "debris ahead" before the debris was smacking them on the head.

In that respect, the only discontinuity would come from the "Balance of Terror" idea that a ship at high warp can observe space dust in place of outposts. This happened between eight and five minutes before maximum-warp arrival to OP4, and (given all the dialogue) probably five minutes before. So the STXI ship would have been at similar range when Chekov was giving his public announcement.

So we know the old ship could sense the conversion of an asteroid to dust and debris at such a range. Does that mean the conversion of starships to dust and debris would also be visible? Not necessarily, considering the size discrepancy.

Wouldn't the Kelvin sacrificing herself in the beginning and throw her warp core in along the explosion?

A good idea if the explosion were of "medium" yield. If it was in the "ginormous" category, though, George Kirk would do everything in his power to prevent the warp core from exploding, since otherwise the blast would kill his wife, son, and "ah hundred" other refugees...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

So we know the old ship could sense the conversion of an asteroid to dust and debris at such a range. Does that mean the conversion of starships to dust and debris would also be visible? Not necessarily, considering the size discrepancy.

Keep in mind that the scans of what was left of outpost 2 and 3 were after they had already been destroyed - their implosions had occurred before the episode.

One of the common things that happened in TOS (that I don't recall seeing in TNG or later) is the ship's sensors (at warp usually) picking up something in its path and snapping on the deflectors and activating the red blinking light.

Wouldn't the Kelvin sacrificing herself in the beginning and throw her warp core in along the explosion?

A good idea if the explosion were of "medium" yield. If it was in the "ginormous" category, though, George Kirk would do everything in his power to prevent the warp core from exploding, since otherwise the blast would kill his wife, son, and "ah hundred" other refugees...

You know that scene I always wondered about. So you have these shuttles slowly getting away and none ever seen going to warp (as presented in the movie) and the Narada obviously surviving. How did those shuttles get away?

 

[Timo]

Keep in mind that the scans of what was left of outpost 2 and 3 were after they had already been destroyed - their implosions had occurred before the episode.

I don't think this would be a factor. Spock would scan for the known locations of the outposts, and either see intact asteroids there or then not. If not, then he might read dust and debris (and might have missed said dust and debris if he hadn't already been focusing on a particular spot). So big asteroids disappearing could well be a very different story from small starships disappearing.

One of the common things that happened in TOS (that I don't recall seeing in TNG or later) is the ship's sensors (at warp usually) picking up something in its path and snapping on the deflectors and activating the red blinking light.

Yes - and this activity taking our heroes by surprise. More often than not (say, in both of the pilot episodes) they couldn't find out what had triggered the auto-shields even after the fact...

Which makes some sense. The sensors that trigger the auto-shields would not need great analytical powers, and would probably be tuned to be on the safe side, raising the deflectors at the sight of anything that looked either threatening or unfamiliar, and only holding back if they could be sure the target was harmless. Much more powerful sensors would then be needed for telling what it was that had triggered the earlier sensors.

Still doesn't contradict a ship at full warp running into a debris field without the heroes getting a proper advance warning. I guess this only means Kirk's heroic sneaking aboard and confronting Pike meant even less: at most, he managed to convince Pike to drop out of warp with shields up, but the collision sensors would have raised the shields anyway...

Timo Saloniemi