Say what you will about Davies's "fanwank," was there ever a Davies episode that featured Daleks, Cybermen, Autons, Sontarans, Sycorax, Silurians, and... Weevils!?
5x012 The Pandorica Opens (Grading/Discussion) SPOILERS!!
- Thread starter Samurai8472
- Start date
Sweet Zombie Jesus, I hope not.
Say what you will about Davies's "fanwank," was there ever a Davies episode that featured Daleks, Cybermen, Autons, Sontarans, Sycorax, Silurians, and... Weevils!?
Not to mention namedropping at least three classic Who races.
Drahvins, Draconians and Zygons.
I realize it probably has more to do with the fact that it was a little busy to reintroduce the original series Cybermen, but does it seem odd to anyone else that the Pete's World Cybermen have apparently developed starships and are still nipping over to alternate universes to run errands? Especially since, come to think of it, I was under the impression that all of them made the ghost shift, and thus all of them ended up in the Void.
Wait, no. Some other colonies might've escaped thanks to the Reality Bomb and established themselves somewhere, since they didn't have the Doctor and the ersatz-Doctor to stop them. Probably in Pete's World, since the Cybermen were the ones who explicitly mentioned that the cracks were going to eat other Universes, too. If they were living in the Doctor's universe, I can't think of a reason why they'd give a rip about home, except sentimentality.
Wait, no. Some other colonies might've escaped thanks to the Reality Bomb and established themselves somewhere, since they didn't have the Doctor and the ersatz-Doctor to stop them. Probably in Pete's World, since the Cybermen were the ones who explicitly mentioned that the cracks were going to eat other Universes, too. If they were living in the Doctor's universe, I can't think of a reason why they'd give a rip about home, except sentimentality.
I loved it. It was excellent. So different from an rtd finale, even though I was dreading the fact we had most of the nuwho monsters in one, it was handled gloriously.
The fact that all the powerful adversaries of the doctor have formed an allience to rid the universe of the doctor wasd so refreshing from the usual rtd fest of threat-figures it out- funny moment-saves the day in last few minutes we had an original concept like this was so nice to watch and be a part of.
And where the doctor and river are trying to figure out what sort of being/entity coul possiobly be in the pandorica only to find out that nothing was in it. Yet. It was the doctor that was there to be imprissoned to prevent thje universe from the doctor. Brilliant.
Still love the party where the doctor is talking to rory and doesn't realise he's alive and well in roman britain. I thought the doctor knew it was rory in the roman garb all along and was carrying on talking until he dropped the weapons and realised he should be dead. Lol.
And amy was killed by Auton-Rory
And everything is formed from Amys childhood memories, but who/what is manipulating the memories? and the tardis took river there to warn them of the danger so who is connected to Amy as a youngster other thant the doctor and prisoner zero that could be responsible? Is it the doctors dream lord self manioulating the course of events via mind fucks?
Who knows. Fantastic first part though. Confirming and dis proving some of our theories.
The fact that all the powerful adversaries of the doctor have formed an allience to rid the universe of the doctor wasd so refreshing from the usual rtd fest of threat-figures it out- funny moment-saves the day in last few minutes we had an original concept like this was so nice to watch and be a part of.
And where the doctor and river are trying to figure out what sort of being/entity coul possiobly be in the pandorica only to find out that nothing was in it. Yet. It was the doctor that was there to be imprissoned to prevent thje universe from the doctor. Brilliant.
Still love the party where the doctor is talking to rory and doesn't realise he's alive and well in roman britain. I thought the doctor knew it was rory in the roman garb all along and was carrying on talking until he dropped the weapons and realised he should be dead. Lol.
And amy was killed by Auton-Rory
And everything is formed from Amys childhood memories, but who/what is manipulating the memories? and the tardis took river there to warn them of the danger so who is connected to Amy as a youngster other thant the doctor and prisoner zero that could be responsible? Is it the doctors dream lord self manioulating the course of events via mind fucks?
Who knows. Fantastic first part though. Confirming and dis proving some of our theories.
Well, the Daleks know Time Lords and how they die. They're not so stupid they don't know a good shooting wouldn't finish him off. As I say, I'm guessing there'll be more of an explanation to come.
This is just my reading of it, but if you've tried to destroy someone as many times as the Alliance members tried to destroy the Doctor, but he keeps coming back, you might be a little reluctant to actually kill him until you can be sure he won't come back - hence trapping him.
I dunno - last time a Dalek successfully shot the Doctor, he not only survived but used it to create a clone of himself AND Time-Lord-ise his friend who eventually brought them all crashing down (yes, in a ludicrous manner, but we'll leave that aside). They probably fear shooting him. The Fisher Price Daleks seem a bit smarter than the old ones.
Yes, I and at least one other poster, several pages back. Building something like the Pandorica and luring the Doctor there seems like an awful lot of work; if they all just teamed up to begin with and lured him somewhere they could have killed him (and made sure he didn't regenerate).
Thank you, this makes perfect sense!
I didn't catch that what they meant by "prevented" would mean he never existed. That explains why the stars and galaxies were blowing up at the end. Wow, so if nobody remembers he existed (except maybe River, since she's in the TARDIS, which is blowing up around her), who can rescue him? Maybe she'll use the vortex manipulator to get out.By the way, did anyone else notice Amy's wedding dress was no longer hanging on her closet door?
Killing a Time Lord is a tricky business. Just when you think you have it al sewn up, the little bugger regenerates. And the assorted aliens in the so-called alliance know that all too well.
If you want to kill a Time Lord, you need to do something absolute. Like lock him into his own TARDIS, with no means of escape and cause it to explode. That'd fix him. Of course, you might cause an explosion so great you'd crack the universe...
In which case the alliance effectively save the Doctor's life by locking him up while the TARDIS explodes. Now there's irony.
The question is who would hate the Doctor so much they'd risk cracking the univers? And I think the answer is the 'Amy's choice'. Add to that the fact that the voice in the TARDIS sounds to me like it's meant to be William Hartnell - and we know that the Doctor's previous selves make an appearance in the finale and I think we're looking at some sort of misguided suicide attempt. What I don't know is why, or why he doesn't remember setting it up, but people forgetting things is a definite theme of the series.
The second question is River's timestream: In 'angels', she's imprisoned for having killed the best man she ever met. And that is after the events of the pandorica opening. In this ep, she's imprisoned (why?) before the pandorica opens. She herself might have bobbed around time, but her memory should be in a straight line - when she gets the message from Churchie, the pandorica is closed and she doesn't know what's inside.
Then there's the question of how come Auton-Rory apparently has Real-Rory's memories. I don't think we've seen the last of him yet. Personally I hope not: the dynamic of the Doctor's companion having her own proper love-interest was something new (and unlike Mickey who was clearly only a make-do-till-I-meet-someone-better interest).
I'm going to watch it again tonight, in the hope of making out the kitchen sink, which I'm sure put in an appearance somewhere. It's there in all the finales, and this one should be no exception. EXpect more questions later.
She mentions an aunt in the first episode. Perhaps the aunt inherited the house, which would explain why it was old and large. Also, the shed outside was rebuilt 12 years ago; I doubt a 7-year-old could have arranged to have that done.
Its rare I post in this forum (if ever) but I just wanted to chime in and say how much I loved this episode (indeed this whole series). I've never been as invested in RTD era Who as I have been in this current series.
I thought this episode was fantastic and I also enjoyed the way the various bit of episodes throughout the series built up to a decent payoff here.
I agree with those who believe the big bad is the Valeyard/Dream Lord.
This is my theory (daft as it sounds)
The Pandorica doesn't just imprison the Doctor but removes him from reality itself (like the stasis chamber in Red Dwarf removed Lister from the time around him). As someone else has said it would have been easy to simply kill the Doctor but the Daleks mentioning that he needed to be "prevented" means that maybe he needs to be removed from existence (and maybe even creation?)
I think that the Doctor himself is a constant of reality, a factor that has to exist to maintain order and I think that if nature indeed abhors a vacuum then if that Doctor was removed from reality then another Doctor would have to step in to fill the void he left. Which could mean that the Valeyard is somehow influencing/manipulating all these other races in to removing the one obstacle preventing him from existing. How he could do this from outside reality I have no idea but I think it would be cool if the TARDIS explosion is caused by the Valeyard and his TARDIS forcefully reasserting itself into reality.
A total shot in the dark but its fun to speculate.
I really cannot wait for the conclusion to this and I have really enjoyed series and hope Moffat, Smith and Gillen stick around for a few more series.
5/5 from me
I thought this episode was fantastic and I also enjoyed the way the various bit of episodes throughout the series built up to a decent payoff here.
I agree with those who believe the big bad is the Valeyard/Dream Lord.
This is my theory (daft as it sounds)
The Pandorica doesn't just imprison the Doctor but removes him from reality itself (like the stasis chamber in Red Dwarf removed Lister from the time around him). As someone else has said it would have been easy to simply kill the Doctor but the Daleks mentioning that he needed to be "prevented" means that maybe he needs to be removed from existence (and maybe even creation?)
I think that the Doctor himself is a constant of reality, a factor that has to exist to maintain order and I think that if nature indeed abhors a vacuum then if that Doctor was removed from reality then another Doctor would have to step in to fill the void he left. Which could mean that the Valeyard is somehow influencing/manipulating all these other races in to removing the one obstacle preventing him from existing. How he could do this from outside reality I have no idea but I think it would be cool if the TARDIS explosion is caused by the Valeyard and his TARDIS forcefully reasserting itself into reality.
A total shot in the dark but its fun to speculate.
I really cannot wait for the conclusion to this and I have really enjoyed series and hope Moffat, Smith and Gillen stick around for a few more series.
5/5 from me
Wow, this had to be the most epic episode of Doctor Who ever! I can't even imagine how they're going to resolve all these storylines, but it definitely made for a fantastic first half.
Hell, I was even kind of excited to see Bracewell and Churchill again! Never thought that would have happened.
One thing I am starting to wonder though... with all these giant, universe-ending threats we're seeing more and more of lately, shouldn't the previous Doctors also be getting word and showing up too, since their timelines are all criss-crossing like crazy at this point? Or if they're somehow unable to sense the threat, shouldn't someone at least try to enlist their help?
With this much at stake, I can't imagine they'd be THAT concerned about bumping into each other...
Hell, I was even kind of excited to see Bracewell and Churchill again! Never thought that would have happened.
One thing I am starting to wonder though... with all these giant, universe-ending threats we're seeing more and more of lately, shouldn't the previous Doctors also be getting word and showing up too, since their timelines are all criss-crossing like crazy at this point? Or if they're somehow unable to sense the threat, shouldn't someone at least try to enlist their help?
With this much at stake, I can't imagine they'd be THAT concerned about bumping into each other...
Do we actually know from the Angels two-parter that River wasn't imprisoned until after the Pandorica affair? It could have easily gone:
1. River imprisoned for killing unknown person
2. "The Pandorica Opens" - River escapes, presumably reimprisoned by the story's end
3. "The Time of Angels" - River released to help deal with the Angels
And, despite River's "sshhh!" to Amy about "Spoilers!", I'm not entirely convinced that, from River's perspective, "The Pandorica Opens" is before "The Time of Angels." I have a hunch that she could be misdirecting the Doctor and Amy into believing she's an earlier River, when she's actually later.
Which has interesting implications. Such as... how did River know about the Pandorica at the end of "Flesh and Stone"? Unless, maybe, she's working with the Big Bad, to manipulate the Doctor into arriving at the Pandorica to be imprisoned...
Indeed, that would make sense. But it assumes that the hints about River killing 'someone' relate to another, completely different occasion/story. Next season?
Also, how did River know for certain that the next time the Doctor would meet her would be when the Pandorica opened? There might have been a meeting in his timeline between 'angels' and 'pandorica' that came after 'angels' in hers.
There is also the fact that one of the themes of the season has been that time can be rewitten. I think the writers realised that they had boxed themselves into a corner with the 'Library' references meaning that we know that both River and the Doctor survive from her spoilers asking whether we're before or after the Pandorica... unless time can be rewritten. I think Moffat wanted to knock that on the head asap, and get us past the "We know it will be alright" feeling.
Because Amy told her in this episode that the last time they met was at the "Byzantium".
Or, the crack ate the entire family, except the little girl, and the universe is compensating around it in an extremely implausible and confusing manner. Not unlike how Amy's file a thousand years in the future couldn't tell whether she was married.
I'm just glad about being vindicated that the Doctor's extremely obvious lying to Amy about picking her up on a lark was, in fact, extremely obvious lying. Chew on that, people who disagreed with me!
^^^ Also, the fact still stands that if they imprisson this incarnation of the doctor, there at most still ten doctors running around the universe anyhow, but as the universe destroyed I suppose that that throws that theory out the window.
^ With that in mind, I'm wondering if the Doctor is actually prepared for the Pandorica after all and this is all part of his plan. Let's not forget he blatantly saw the crack on the TARDIS monitor when he was about to scoop Amy away. He knows some or all of what's going on.
The question he doesn't have an answer to - the reason he's taken Amy travelling - is who or what has manipulated or moulded her in order to compromise him and cause the cracks in the universe. Oh, and the small matter of how he can go and time-travelling to, eg Eleventh Hour and Flesh and Stone, without the TARDIS. Did River give him the Time Vortex Manipulator before she left? Or will she herself use it to escape the TARDIS and return to help again?
And here's another one for you all: who was River speaking to when she said 'I'm sorry, my love?' The Doctor, the TARDIS, or the entity controlling the TARDIS? The first dissolves the ambiguity of their relationship and the third would make things very interesting.
I'm also not convinced all those enemies were really there, not least because of the time period and the difficulties it creates for all bar the Daleks and Sontarans. (As a side note, I'm told the Chelonians have only ever been in the radio plays - or books - so this episode's reference to them properly canonises them, does it not?)
Next Saturday seems like a long time away. Good job I care about the World Cup and have a whole week of matches to distract me otherwise it would be unbearable.
ETA: oh yeah, convinced we'll see Amy's aunt next week...
The question he doesn't have an answer to - the reason he's taken Amy travelling - is who or what has manipulated or moulded her in order to compromise him and cause the cracks in the universe. Oh, and the small matter of how he can go and time-travelling to, eg Eleventh Hour and Flesh and Stone, without the TARDIS. Did River give him the Time Vortex Manipulator before she left? Or will she herself use it to escape the TARDIS and return to help again?
And here's another one for you all: who was River speaking to when she said 'I'm sorry, my love?' The Doctor, the TARDIS, or the entity controlling the TARDIS? The first dissolves the ambiguity of their relationship and the third would make things very interesting.
I'm also not convinced all those enemies were really there, not least because of the time period and the difficulties it creates for all bar the Daleks and Sontarans. (As a side note, I'm told the Chelonians have only ever been in the radio plays - or books - so this episode's reference to them properly canonises them, does it not?)
Next Saturday seems like a long time away. Good job I care about the World Cup and have a whole week of matches to distract me otherwise it would be unbearable.
ETA: oh yeah, convinced we'll see Amy's aunt next week...