4K Blu-Ray Vs. 4K Streaming

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by tomswift2002, Mar 8, 2021.

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  1. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Commodore Commodore

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    Your the one who comes across as clueless, along with Timby and JWolf. Your the idiot.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    Once again, check out Murder Among the Mormons and tell me you can't tell the difference...
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    For shits and giggles...

     
  4. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    You don't really sound like someone who knows what they are talking about. The way you wrote that comes off forced- oversatured with jargon.
     
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  5. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    I work with 1.5gbit HD and 12gbit 4k, you don't get much higher bitrate than that. We do have some quad-sdi (we live in a legacy world, and throwing some sdi cables across the lot is far safer than trying to share IP between different production vehicles), but on the whole 4K is streaming - mainly 2110 (some 8 bit, some 10 bit, and I mainly work in 50 rather than 60 so bitrates are a bit variable), some 2022-6. Working on our forward looking architecture and I don't envisage any SDI routers beyond small routers (40, 64, maybe 128 in large trucks, if we build any more). Certainly we'll have one or two A/B 2110 leaf/spine networks instead of two 1500-square sdi matrices by the end of the decade, or we'll be even more decentralised than we are now.

    The highest the spec goes for 4k bluray is a measly 144mbit, that's nearly 100:1 compression compared with streaming.

    I don't do much in the way of 4k compressed - still have relatively few events generating it (and this year events are rather short on the ground - although looks like Tokyo and Amsterdam are on), but 50, maybe 100mbit h265 are the ballpark numbers of what's usually considered to be high quality.

    The last major event streaming I did in October was plain simple HD at 60mbit h264 (2 RTP streams with a video payload of 60mbit, about 6mbit of audio I think - it was dolby-e pass through, and some overhead of course). Could have gone higher, but it's not necessary - even with the transmission chain, in double blind tests people can't tell the difference.


    So Streaming vs Disk

    Streaming vs Disk is not what determines the quality, nor indeed is bitrate (although obviously bitrate is linked). You'll get far better quality out of a 10Mbit netflix source stream with multi-pass encoding h265 than you will with the same material on a 12mbit blueray encoded with h264, but you won't get better from a blueray 20mbit stream than you will from a netflix 20mbit stream with the same encoder and settings. It's all data, doesn't matter how it's transported, what matters is how it's generated and decoded.

    The level that someone can tell there are artifacts varies, and I'd agree that there's plausible an impact in the window that netflix are claiming (did I see topping out at 12mbit for 4k? That feels low to me, even with a specifically tuned encoder) - and I think that in any case reducing the top bitrate is a shot in their own foot given their audience, the ease of measuring bitrate, and the difficulty in measuring quality, but that's not a streaming problem, that's a business decision from netflix. No reason that you can't stream 50mbit or 100mbit, it's a business decision

    Any measure you can use to objectively measure quality (psnr, ssim, vmaf) can be quite trivially rigged (see arguments at events like demuxed), so "bitrate" is the only thing people have to compare. Which is a shame, as a good h265 encoder at 20mbit will trounce a poor h265 encoder at 40mbit. At decent bitrates your viewing setup is far more important though.

    If you want to measure quality, you need to do large scale double blind subjective experiment with a variety of sources (not just things like the EBU test tape), following ITU-R BT 500, and even then you still wouldn't win over audiophile types (the ones that claim they can hear CD 'compression')

    Enjoy your blurays. I know where you're coming from with complaining about "streaming", and I've seen some awful streaming in the past (the final battle of Winterfell in GoT on nowtv was awful, was about 5mbit in HD. I cancelled shortly after that), but ultimatly the convienience and the power of streaming will prevail and those bluerays will become rarer at time goes on.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    You seem like you know something... so, I have to ask... can you tell the difference between VHS and "4K" streaming?
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    At least they can punctuate.
     
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  8. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not really. Bandwith can be crap but streaming services aren't trying to feed you a 240p image filtered through a crab net. If you're having issues it's not the provider, it's your setup and bandwith issues.
     
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  9. Timby

    Timby hi there Administrator

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    MY CLUELESS :( :( :(
     
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  10. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Literally the definition of first world problems.
     
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  11. Reyman

    Reyman Commander Red Shirt

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    The only thing that might explain the differences in opinions is if tomswift2002 watched streaming contact from 2 feet away on an 80" screen.
     
  12. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

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    @Paul Weaver what do you think of the streaming quality of Netflix, Disney+, and Amazon Prime Video?''

    I really like your explanation of how compressed video works.
     
  13. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

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    That would make blind.....which would certainly line up with his MO.
     
  14. Random_Spock

    Random_Spock Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Never had too many issues with Paramount + when it was CBS All Access. Maybe a bit of pixel issues and one freeze. But it's still better than Fox's player. Theirs is so bad that it makes tv shows look like a pixelated mess that's hardly playable.
     
  15. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Commodore Commodore

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    Again, you're the idiot. Streaming is garbage and looks like VHS.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    Wow. Came back three weeks later, for that?
     
  17. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Commodore Commodore

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    I've been extremely busy.

    But streaming doesn't compare at all to Blu-Ray or 4K Blu-Ray. And bitrate does play a huge part, since if the information is not there, then it's not there and the computer is having to "guess" at what is required in that moment. And the heavier the compression and lower the bitrate, the less information the computer has to work with on playback resulting in lower quality.
     
  18. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles Patron Saint of Dangerous Driving Premium Member

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    Maybe in your bumblefuck corner of Canada internet speeds are crummy enough that streaming video looks unsatisfactory, but I'm fairly certain that you are the only person on this planet who thinks the picture quality of a high-def streamed video is no better than the picture quality from a VHS tape. This is an incredibly ridiculous hill you've chosen to die on, but hey, you do you.
     
  19. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe, you'll get some time freed up, soon.
     
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  20. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    PEBCAK! Three miles west of COVFEFE!
    Yeah, this won’t end well.
     
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