Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
2017, A Trek For The Fans?
- Thread starter Bry_Sinclair
- Start date
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
I kinda disagree with this.
Rathbone's Holmes belongs to an entirely different continuity to Cumberbatch's Holmes. They are the same character but they don't share the same universe.
Montalban's Khan and Cumberbatch's Khan are the same character. Everything they were from birth to the Eugenics Wars to fleeing Earth on the Botany Bay in stasis is the same character. It's only from the point of Khan being awoken that their paths differed. For that reason I would expect the 2 versions to share a lot more similarities.
One thing I will concede is that Space Seed Khan and Into Darkness Khan share more similarities than TWOK Khan. But then it's complicated by the fact Into Darkness Khan was given similar motivations as TWOK Khan and should therefore be closer in character to TWOK Khan if this truly is the same person with just a few years of different experiences. Space Seed Khan became mad with rage because his wife and friends died whereas Into Darkness Khan also had a thirst for revenge because of what happened to his people.
Were you able to follow that or did I confuse you as well as myself?
For most of STID, Khan doesn't have the same motivations as his TWOK counterpart. By the time the movie reaches his second line, he's on a rescue mission.
TWOK Khan had 15 years to just sit and stew as he went crazier and crazier, but he was still capable of scheming and pulling off plans. STID Khan had been on a warpath for months at most, and even then his revenge plans were the same as Prime Khan's - namely that he steals ships, shoots at everyone besides who he's aiming for, and let's off a bomb!
TWOK Khan had 15 years to just sit and stew as he went crazier and crazier, but he was still capable of scheming and pulling off plans. STID Khan had been on a warpath for months at most, and even then his revenge plans were the same as Prime Khan's - namely that he steals ships, shoots at everyone besides who he's aiming for, and let's off a bomb!
Not only that, but STID Khan had lived in the Starfleet world for 2 years, or something like that, and developed a better understanding of the technology available to him.
I find Space Seed Khan and STID Khan very similar, with different motivations and goals. STID Khan had actually been cowed by Marcus and he chaffed under the bit of that control. He played his part to Kirk and then unleashed the vengeance (no pun intended) he had been plotting since he had been awoken.
Nope. I have no problem with STID and Space Seed Khan.
Since STID is only a year after XI, Khan would have been around less than that, he was woken as a reaction to the loss of Vulcan.
Ok. Fair enough.
However, he still had more time in the future with all the technological resources of S31 than his Prime Universe counterpart ever had.
I guess it depends on how literally you want to take all the "in-universe" alternate universe technobabble as opposed to accepting that, in the real world, this is basically a reboot with a time-travel fig leaf.
I never expected Cumberbatch to mimic Ricardo Montalban, any more than I expected Heath Ledger to imitate Jack Nicholson or Cesar Romero when playing the Joker.
I never expected Cumberbatch to mimic Ricardo Montalban, any more than I expected Heath Ledger to imitate Jack Nicholson or Cesar Romero when playing the Joker.
I also have to wonder if he didn't try to pull Space Seed Khan's charismatic wining and dining routine on Marcus only to get smacked down, which lead him to dropping it for just straight up ruthlessness.
Yes, they threw in Nimoy to appease fans, but JJ trek is totally unrelated to Prime Trek. It's not an alternate timeline, it's clearly a different universe with different physics, rules & history. It's a reboot pretending to still be related to the old canon for ease of fans swallowing it. I guess I'm glad they tried to throw us fans a bone tho.
Given Marcus' own ruthless leanings, I would imagine that would be the case.
In any case, STID Khan had different tools to work with to try and continue his work.
Did you expect Karl Urban to mimic McCoy as much as he did? I think to a certain extent, the main cast did a fairly good job of that, which is perhaps why Cumberbatch's performance sticks out. They're still supposed to be the same characters.
And Khan had a facelift in this reality. Problem solved.
For what it's worth I though he was quite good as Col. Vautrain
in WWW.
Honestly, I don't think I ever got that impression in Montalban's characterization. I think he was straightforward with what he intended to achieve and how he was going to go about it. In fact, I think the behavior cited above would probably strike him as unseemly, just as he regarded the worth of diplomacy. Perhaps, I'm focused too much on the episode and not TWOK, which I've not seen in a very long time.
As for the OP, my answer is yes. Except I suspect that CBS and the showrunner's idea of the fans is a little different than meant here. I think it refers on the whole to the mainstream previously non-Trek familiar audience that it seems to me to be the predominant thrust of the films' marketing and production aspirations. Did they deny admittance to the Old Guard? Of course not, naturally the franchise wants to make as much money as possible. Undoubtedly, there was always going to be a significant cohort of Prime Universe habitues that would stick their collective toes in the water, so to speak, but I don't believe that the filmmakers were going to concede much to them other than the shell of what came before, both in the characterization of a crew and adversaries with the same names, and an appearance by the Old Master. Other than that it was welcome to the New Programme. So it will be IMO, with different faces and a lower crazed action quotient perhaps, in Kurtzman's vision.
Last edited:
There was an old film called 'Border Incident' where he was pretty good too. But there wasn't as many 'milking the giant cow' moments as TWOK.
To be honest, most of the things I've seen Montalban in haven't exactly demanded a lot of range. I'm not saying he wasn't capable of more, but God did he get stuck playing 'the charmer' a lot - even Khan in Space Seed was a variation on that. I can remember seeing an episode of 'Murder, She Wrote,' which managed to be a surprise because it did have him just playing a grasping and pathetic old man.
To be honest, most of the things I've seen Montalban in haven't exactly demanded a lot of range. I'm not saying he wasn't capable of more, but God did he get stuck playing 'the charmer' a lot - even Khan in Space Seed was a variation on that. I can remember seeing an episode of 'Murder, She Wrote,' which managed to be a surprise because it did have him just playing a grasping and pathetic old man.
Last edited:
What I liked about TWOK was that it was streamlined story telling. Khan is out for revenge and creates a trail of destruction to get his face to face rematch with his 'old friend'.
The subsequent battle scenes were well paced, filled with pauses highly charged with tension and laced with savage exchanges of fire until Spock martyrs himself as a bloodied Khan presses the red button in one final zero-sum effort to obliterate Kirk. Streamlined, simple storytellng, epic drama.
Khan himself is surrounded by his fellows in that film. He's depicted as an active leader; one can perhaps visualise him as a Genghis Khan for the modern world. He has a kind of charisma and smooth tongue that befits a demagogue and conquerer that may have bewitched nations in times of apocalyptic upheaval.
=
Cumberhatch's guy is basically a serial killer on a solo run. He's absent of charisma and humanity - except for the brig scene. I don't remember him exhibiting any leadership traits. And in the film the guy is all over the blasted place, he's muckin' about with Marcus, he's got his people stuffed in torpedo cases, he's chillin' on Kronos, he's givin' Kirk a helping hand, he's makin' Marcus' head explode. The man is just all over the blasted place. The entire film is just overweight with these flabby haphazard elements.
I did think JJ's film were a complete f!&*8!*^ disaster. But there was some isolated scenes that I liked. Kirk and Pike's relationship is well done. I think the crew, aside from Scotty, is well cast with Quinto being particularly good in the role of Spock.
And the brig scene. Khan has a legitimate grievance and Cumberhatch does a good job here in conveying that with that tear of his. Khan is just looking out for his people. He's a nut of course but not just a nut, he's got a good grievance and there's complexity there. But they didn't exploit that complexity and draw these traits out. He just relapsed back into serial killer mode and that's a big reason I was very underwhelmed by Cumberhatch's portrayal as Khan.
Marcus is badly written as well. I would've assumed being a Starfleet Admiral he'd be doing a little bit of agonising before he do what'd he'd see as a "necessary evil" and take out the Enterprise. Instead, in fine serial killer mode, he's havin' fun' torturing and butcherin' the Enterprise crew. He's getting his kicks out of it. I suppose the icey serial killer thing plays to Wellers strengths but I do think it was very lazy characterisation.
In some mitigation, I think alot of effort was put into developing the triumvirate of McCoy, Spock and Kirk and I think they did that well. I would've liked McCoy to be a bit older but I wasn't detained by that aspect. But the filmmakers seemed to get lazy with everyone else. The villains just were poorly developed as ever; they seemed incomplete and they rushed them in as these various serial killers types. And I know the studios placed certain demands and the filmmakers were trying to shove in all these big names in somewhere but it served to completely wreck the film for me as a genuine cinematic experience.
The subsequent battle scenes were well paced, filled with pauses highly charged with tension and laced with savage exchanges of fire until Spock martyrs himself as a bloodied Khan presses the red button in one final zero-sum effort to obliterate Kirk. Streamlined, simple storytellng, epic drama.
Khan himself is surrounded by his fellows in that film. He's depicted as an active leader; one can perhaps visualise him as a Genghis Khan for the modern world. He has a kind of charisma and smooth tongue that befits a demagogue and conquerer that may have bewitched nations in times of apocalyptic upheaval.
=
Cumberhatch's guy is basically a serial killer on a solo run. He's absent of charisma and humanity - except for the brig scene. I don't remember him exhibiting any leadership traits. And in the film the guy is all over the blasted place, he's muckin' about with Marcus, he's got his people stuffed in torpedo cases, he's chillin' on Kronos, he's givin' Kirk a helping hand, he's makin' Marcus' head explode. The man is just all over the blasted place. The entire film is just overweight with these flabby haphazard elements.
I did think JJ's film were a complete f!&*8!*^ disaster. But there was some isolated scenes that I liked. Kirk and Pike's relationship is well done. I think the crew, aside from Scotty, is well cast with Quinto being particularly good in the role of Spock.
And the brig scene. Khan has a legitimate grievance and Cumberhatch does a good job here in conveying that with that tear of his. Khan is just looking out for his people. He's a nut of course but not just a nut, he's got a good grievance and there's complexity there. But they didn't exploit that complexity and draw these traits out. He just relapsed back into serial killer mode and that's a big reason I was very underwhelmed by Cumberhatch's portrayal as Khan.
Marcus is badly written as well. I would've assumed being a Starfleet Admiral he'd be doing a little bit of agonising before he do what'd he'd see as a "necessary evil" and take out the Enterprise. Instead, in fine serial killer mode, he's havin' fun' torturing and butcherin' the Enterprise crew. He's getting his kicks out of it. I suppose the icey serial killer thing plays to Wellers strengths but I do think it was very lazy characterisation.
In some mitigation, I think alot of effort was put into developing the triumvirate of McCoy, Spock and Kirk and I think they did that well. I would've liked McCoy to be a bit older but I wasn't detained by that aspect. But the filmmakers seemed to get lazy with everyone else. The villains just were poorly developed as ever; they seemed incomplete and they rushed them in as these various serial killers types. And I know the studios placed certain demands and the filmmakers were trying to shove in all these big names in somewhere but it served to completely wreck the film for me as a genuine cinematic experience.
Interesting points. I don't agree with most of them, but I do appreciate the perspective.
Personally, I wish Cumberbatch had just been John Harrison, and thus his service to Marcus would make more sense. He was loyal until a certain point.
That said, I found Cumberbatch's Khan far more interesting to delve in to from a psychological point of view. He's cold and a killer-why is he that way? He's willing to work with Marcus-why, when he obviously could have killed him?
For me, the film hints out, rather than exposits, Marcus' and Khan's POV and that engages me more on a character level.
Also, Starfleet Admirals do ridiculous things all the time-Cartwright, Leyton, Doghetery (sp? he's from Insurrection), and Janeway. Marcus is just following the Starfleet tradition that becoming an Admiral means your more destructive, crazy, side comes out.
Personally, I wish Cumberbatch had just been John Harrison, and thus his service to Marcus would make more sense. He was loyal until a certain point.
That said, I found Cumberbatch's Khan far more interesting to delve in to from a psychological point of view. He's cold and a killer-why is he that way? He's willing to work with Marcus-why, when he obviously could have killed him?
For me, the film hints out, rather than exposits, Marcus' and Khan's POV and that engages me more on a character level.
Also, Starfleet Admirals do ridiculous things all the time-Cartwright, Leyton, Doghetery (sp? he's from Insurrection), and Janeway. Marcus is just following the Starfleet tradition that becoming an Admiral means your more destructive, crazy, side comes out.
Or soon to die.
Similar threads
- Locked
