2009 Fall Book Preview With Covers

[DimesDan]

Sci, give it a break, if he wants to say his piece over the prices of Trades than let him for god's sack. Just do what I tend to do when I see a long and possibly long winded or just damn irritating post and either ignore it or skim it, it ain't that hard.

Oh and just for the record, I like Trades, as prices for Mass Market's are rising again (Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Invincible was £7.99 compared with Full Circle's £6.99) I wouldn't be surprised if Mass's are dropped and replaced with Trades as some are now the same price as Mass Markets.

 

[BillJ]

Sci, give it a break, if he wants to say his piece over the prices of Trades than let him for god's sack. Just do what I tend to do when I see a long and possibly long winded or just damn irritating post and either ignore it or skim it, it ain't that hard.

I'll never understand how someone can let a message board irritate them! Jesus! It's just a fun way to pass the time.

Some act like it's life or death. Or their personal honor is at stake.

 

[Sci]

Wow. I never knew speaking your mind on a message board equated to whining.

I'm not sure what else to call it when you spend that much time complaining about the price of a book you in no way need, especially when there are used book markets online that will re-sell the book at a reduced price, and when there are libraries who will lend the book to you for free.

And I'm especially not sure what else to call it when someone takes one statement -- "People are willing to pay more for TPBs" -- and uses it to put words in someone's mouth ("So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?")

For the TPB's, the value versus costs just doesn't match up anymore for me. For me a 110,000 (roughly) word novel just isn't worth $16.00. If it was a six-hundred page, two hundred thousand word epic my feelings would probably be different.

And that's why you're not part of the demand curve that Pocket is serving with those novels.

Similarly, I have no interest in the recent novel Troublesome Minds. I'm not saying it looks bad, and DaveGalanter seems like a standup guy, but it's just in no way interesting to me. I am not part of that particular novel's demand curve. I don't spend my time whining about the fact that they didn't write a novel that I wasn't interested in, because I recognize that different products are aimed at different parts of the Trek audience, and I'm not going to be the target audience for all of them.

You're not part of the target audience for TPBs by virtue of the fact that you don't think they're worth the price. That's fine. But I would advise that you stop acting like Pocket Books ought to make its business decisions to accommodate you.

 

[DimesDan]

Sci, give it a break, if he wants to say his piece over the prices of Trades than let him for god's sack. Just do what I tend to do when I see a long and possibly long winded or just damn irritating post and either ignore it or skim it, it ain't that hard.

I'll never understand how someone can let a message board irritate them! Jesus! It's just a fun way to pass the time.

Some act like it's life or death. Or their personal honor is at stake.

Not many things irritate me really, just if I know there's a topic I feel passionate about, nine times out of ten, I'll just leave it as it's not worth the energy.

I was going to edit this in to my last post. I just picked up and decided to have a look at a book I'm reading at the moment which is Trade size, and its priced at £7.99, the same price as Invincible

 

[BillJ]

But I would advise that you stop acting like Pocket Books ought to make its business decisions to accommodate you.

What other point-of-view am I concerned with. The entire debate is working from my point of view...

I know I love paying almost twice as much for what is essentially the same content. Decisions like these are why I went from buying practically everything Pocket publishes with 'Star Trek' on the cover to buying only certain books.

To me the decision turned away this customer.

"Gosh, there are only twelve publishing slots! If I want to publish this thirteenth book I'll have to charge the public twice as much.", I call bullshit on this logic.

Someone tried to say that we were somehow better off because we were getting extra books. Which I say is faulty logic.

This all makes sense. But what changes when you're dealing with a very niche product like Star Trek? How many readers can Pocket afford to bleed by making this move before things become unprofitable?

My wife asked me if I wanted New Frontier: Treason last night while we were at the bookstore. My simple answer was, "not at that price" and picked up "The Time Ships" by Stephen Baxter.

This seemed to be the post that riled Thrawn all up. I questioned someone who has worked in retail about how the decision would affect Pocket's sales.

At least that way I could gauge whether the content was worth the price. Buy one book and if I didn't like it I wasn't on the hook for the price of the other one or two.

This was a post about which strategy was better (multiple MMPB's vs. TPB's).

You're talking apples and oranges and you know it. A fifty cent across the board increase is expected from time to time. Charging $8.99 for one ninety thousand word novel and then charging $16.00 for another ninety thousand word novel is ridiculous.

This was about a proposed fifty cent hike in all MMPB's.

Sorry. In each instance I worked from the point of view of how it affects my buying patterns. Which is the only buying patterns I care about. I can't imagine trying to speak for any one else.

So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?

Obviously just being funny here...

"Lighten up, Francis."

 

[BillJ]

Sci, give it a break, if he wants to say his piece over the prices of Trades than let him for god's sack. Just do what I tend to do when I see a long and possibly long winded or just damn irritating post and either ignore it or skim it, it ain't that hard.

I'll never understand how someone can let a message board irritate them! Jesus! It's just a fun way to pass the time.

Some act like it's life or death. Or their personal honor is at stake.

Not many things irritate me really, just if I know there's a topic I feel passionate about, nine times out of ten, I'll just leave it as it's not worth the energy.

I was going to edit this in to my last post. I just picked up and decided to have a look at a book I'm reading at the moment which is Trade size, and its priced at £7.99, the same price as Invincible

Here in the States it is a bit different at the bookstores. MMPB's run between $6.99 - $8.99 and Trades run between $16.00 - $18.00.

 

[Reanok]

Someone asked who is the Artist for The Never Ending Sacrifice cover.I checked at Memory Beta and says it's Nicolas Bouvier.

 

[Sci]

But I would advise that you stop acting like Pocket Books ought to make its business decisions to accommodate you.

What other point-of-view am I concerned with. The entire debate is working from my point of view...

No, it's not, it's working from Pocket's point of view. No one is arguing with your right to refuse to buy the book, but to act as though you don't understand why they're making the business decisions they are making simply because it does not serve your whims is irrational.

I know I love paying almost twice as much for what is essentially the same content. Decisions like these are why I went from buying practically everything Pocket publishes with 'Star Trek' on the cover to buying only certain books.

To me the decision turned away this customer.

Sure. There are going to be costs and benefits to doing business, and a given decision might alienate some customers whilst attracting others. But obviously this business decision is proving profitable; logically, therefore, there is no rational reason to question why Pocket is doing it. You might not like it and choose not to purchase it, but to question the business rationale behind it seems, at best, irrational. And to demand that they make business decisions that serve your financial whims is just irritatingly selfish.

This all makes sense. But what changes when you're dealing with a very niche product like Star Trek? How many readers can Pocket afford to bleed by making this move before things become unprofitable?

My wife asked me if I wanted New Frontier: Treason last night while we were at the bookstore. My simple answer was, "not at that price" and picked up "The Time Ships" by Stephen Baxter.

This seemed to be the post that riled Thrawn all up.

My name is Sci, thanks.

So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?

Obviously just being funny here...

It did not come across as being funny -- it came across as being needlessly rude, misrepresentative of other people's words, and more than a little confrontational and whiny.

 

[AuntKate]

I really don't care what the covers look like. However, I did read the synopses of the books, and I can't help but ask how writing with such glaring errors in grammar and punctuation can go uncorrected. Who edits these? Or fails to?

 

[BillJ]

My name is Sci, thanks.

Once again it was Thrawn who I was originally debating with. Reading comprehension is your friend.

So Pocket is telling me their $8.99 stuff is shit work they think won't sell?

Obviously just being funny here...

It did not come across as being funny -- it came across as being needlessly rude, misrepresentative of other people's words, and more than a little confrontational and whiny.

I apologize to anyone who thought the remark was not funny.

 

[Thrawn]

2) You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.

3) It is bad when a corporation exploits its customers. This is exactly the same thing as when Paramount was charging $140 a season for Star Trek.

4) You're right. I don't have to buy it. But Pocket should be worried when they chase someone like me away with excessive pricing (good income, like to buy whatever has the label on it).

I've eliminated all the snarky bullshit from your post, assuming that you're generally an intelligent person and were just annoyed. If you really want to call me names and insult my intelligence, please do so over PM.

2) The question of whether or not it's worth it is entirely up to you. I would never argue otherwise. You just gave completely spurious reasons. I never told you to buy it, just that word count was a dumb way to justify not buying it. Do whatever you please.

3) And when Paramount charged that much, I didn't buy them. And the prices eventually dropped. That's how the market works.

4) Pocket should be worried about "chasing away" one customer? You are far too convinced of your own importance.


Pocket prices things however they feel it'll make them the most money. So does everyone else. If a company succeeds in "gouging" customers, it's because the customers are willing to be gouged. If you find the crusade against TPBs to be a righteous one, just don't fucking buy them.

Anyone with any decision making power in any institution like this one has long since learned to ignore people whining online.

 

[Thrawn]

I know I love paying almost twice as much for what is essentially the same content. Decisions like these are why I went from buying practically everything Pocket publishes with 'Star Trek' on the cover to buying only certain books.

This all makes sense. But what changes when you're dealing with a very niche product like Star Trek? How many readers can Pocket afford to bleed by making this move before things become unprofitable?

"Gosh, there are only twelve publishing slots! If I want to publish this thirteenth book I'll have to charge the public twice as much.", I call bullshit on this logic.

Hopefully Pocket knows what they are doing with the print line.

And, BillJ, since you seem to be confused about how we could've possibly objected to your humble post about buying Time Ships instead, I point you to these posts which strongly indicate you believe that Pocket is making a Bad Call by pissing you off, that they may be generally incompetent, and that they have made many similarly insulting decisions recently (such as?), not to mention responding to my previously completely considerate tone with overstated and obviously ridiculous sarcasm.

All before I was "riled all up".

 

[LightningStorm]

1) If you actually read all the posts, you would have seen that Allyn Gibson and I had already discussed this point. Reading comprehension is your friend.

2) You continue to ignore the question of what makes a TPB worth the excessive price. Whether a movie is ninety minutes or two and a half hours I'm paying the same $9.75 to get in. MMPB are between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for X price. TPB are slightly larger in size, between 70,000 and 125,000 words and are softcover for nearly twice the price.

3) It is bad when a corporation exploits its customers. This is exactly the same thing as when Paramount was charging $140 a season for Star Trek. Just because you like to grab your ankles when Dave Matthews comes to town doesn't mean everyone does.

4) You're right. I don't have to buy it. But Pocket should be worried when they chase someone like me away with excessive pricing (good income, like to buy whatever has the label on it).

Plus you're the one who came into the discussion with the attitude of an insufferable ass. Might want to tone it down in the future.

Calling someone an "insufferable ass" is flaming. This combined with "Reading comprehension is your friend." and "Just because you like to grab your ankles when Dave Matthews comes to town doesn't mean everyone does." earns you a warning.

Comments via PM.

 

[BillJ]

I know I love paying almost twice as much for what is essentially the same content. Decisions like these are why I went from buying practically everything Pocket publishes with 'Star Trek' on the cover to buying only certain books.

This all makes sense. But what changes when you're dealing with a very niche product like Star Trek? How many readers can Pocket afford to bleed by making this move before things become unprofitable?

"Gosh, there are only twelve publishing slots! If I want to publish this thirteenth book I'll have to charge the public twice as much.", I call bullshit on this logic.

Hopefully Pocket knows what they are doing with the print line.

And, BillJ, since you seem to be confused about how we could've possibly objected to your humble post about buying Time Ships instead, I point you to these posts which strongly indicate you believe that Pocket is making a Bad Call by pissing you off, that they may be generally incompetent, and that they have made many similarly insulting decisions recently (such as?), not to mention responding to my previously completely considerate tone with overstated and obviously ridiculous sarcasm.

All before I was "riled all up".

Care to explain how any of the above quotes offended you? Especially since two of the replies were pointed at Allyn Gibson. And since I'm just one customer obviously the above quotes shouldn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sure the American auto-makers thought the same way you do. We'll increase prices and make a lesser product... who cares if it pisses off a few customers. We've all seen how that worked out.

 

[Thrawn]

Care to explain how any of the above quotes offended you? Especially since two of the replies were pointed at Allyn Gibson. And since I'm just one customer obviously the above quotes shouldn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sure the American auto-makers thought the same way you do. We'll increase prices and make a lesser product... who cares if it pisses off a few customers. We've all seen how that worked out.

You didn't offend me. It's an argument on a messageboard. I just disagreed with you.

As for your other argument, I think I'll just leave it at and bid you adieu. I'm finished here; this is inane.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've noticed a couple of posters who'll come running to 'save the day' whenever someone questions a production or creative decision made by Pocket.

To the extent where I get PMs asking what Pocket Books pay me in commission.

ST fans often have an extraordinary expectation of their entitlement to the lowest of low prices always, maximum page count always, no double dipping ever, regular/uninterrupted supply of quality product, but only to the likes of each indivividual.

Pocket creates ST tie-ins for several demographics at a time. They don't assume that every fan is a completist. I never really saw the need for Pocket's first original hardcover, but I've come to love my hardcovers, and thrilled to own all 50+ titles. I will keep buying trades if that's the only way we'll get those prestige titles in the current economical climate. Generally their page counts are higher, and I know the authors are rewarded with a higher royalty.

I feel disappointed for those ST fans who can't afford off-the-shelf ST books as they are released. I couldn't imagine how frustrated I'd be if I couldn't afford new ST novels, comics and DVDs as they are released every month, but I guess I've made certain lifestyle choices (such as no owning a car, buying a house with a spare bedroom) to ensure I can always support and store my habit.

I do get miffed when certain fans call for the abolishment of a certain line of ST products, that I happen to like, simply because they can't afford them, or think that a certain format has fallen from favour. I trust that Pocket know what they're doing. They've held a ST license since 1979, seem to know the markets well, have experimented and tweaked to take account of feedback, and generally continue to churn out successful, reasonably priced products.

It that makes me an apologist for ST tie-ins, well... I'm sorry.

 

[seigezunt]

geez, why the whining? Just buy em used on amazon if you are too cheap, like me.

 

[BillJ]

I've noticed a couple of posters who'll come running to 'save the day' whenever someone questions a production or creative decision made by Pocket.

To the extent where I get PMs asking what Pocket Books pay me in commission.

Don't even understand what that has to do with the discussion.

ST fans often have an extraordinary expectation of their entitlement to the lowest of low prices always, maximum page count always, no double dipping ever, regular/uninterrupted supply of quality product, but only to the likes of each indivividual.

Never said anything along those lines. Once again this is value vs. costs for New Frontier: Treason, a book that has roughly the same word count as Before Dishonor for twice the price.

Pocket creates ST tie-ins for several demographics at a time. They don't assume that every fan is a completist. I never really saw the need for Pocket's first original hardcover, but I've come to love my hardcovers, and thrilled to own all 50+ titles. I will keep buying trades if that's the only way we'll get those prestige titles in the current economical climate. Generally their page counts are higher, and I know the authors are rewarded with a higher royalty.

I liked the hardcovers too. Felt like I was actually getting something more for the additional cost.

I feel disappointed for those ST fans who can't afford off-the-shelf ST books as they are released. I couldn't imagine how frustrated I'd be if I couldn't afford new ST novels, comics and DVDs as they are released every month, but I guess I've made certain lifestyle choices (such as no owning a car, buying a house with a spare bedroom) to ensure I can always support and store my habit.

This was never about affording the book. Once again it's about value vs. costs. I have Mere Anarchy and several of the Mirror/Myriad Universes titles sitting on my shelf. Again, I felt there was something of value there that made them worth the additional price.

I do get miffed when certain fans call for the abolishment of a certain line of ST products, that I happen to like, simply because they can't afford them, or think that a certain format has fallen from favour. I trust that Pocket know what they're doing. They've held a ST license since 1979, seem to know the markets well, have experimented and tweaked to take account of feedback, and generally continue to churn out successful, reasonably priced products.

I never said to abolish the Trades, just that there should be additional value there. As far as 1979 goes, isn't Simon and Shuster a subsidiary of Viacom, which owns Paramount?

It that makes me an apologist for ST tie-ins, well... I'm sorry.

Wouldn't expect anything less.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Don't even understand what that has to do with the discussion.

You raised the topic of "posters who'll come running to 'save the day' whenever someone questions a production or creative decision made by Pocket." Can we not come running to that topic any more?

Once again this is value vs. costs for New Frontier: Treason, a book that has roughly the same word count as Before Dishonor for twice the price.

The only reason "Treason" wasn't in hardcover was because Pocket has dropped the line in favour of trades. "Treason" was made to stand tall beside the other "New Frontier". I didn't bother calculating word counts but "Treason" felt like a typical meaty NF read to me. "Before Dishonor" is part of the MMPB TNG Relaunch, recent titles of which are also MMPB.

I liked the hardcovers too. Felt like I was actually getting something more for the additional cost.

Then think of trades as cheaper versions of the hardcovers. Nice big cover art, stand on the same shelf as your hardcovers, but half the price.

This was never about affording the book. Once again it's about value vs. costs. I have Mere Anarchy and several of the Mirror/Myriad Universes titles sitting on my shelf. Again, I felt there was something of value there that made them worth the additional price.

And "Treason" is probably meatier than the average MMPB. You are complaining that "Treason" was a MMPB sized book in trade guise, but it's just a easily seen as an economical version of a hardcover.

As far as 1979 goes, isn't Simon and Shuster a subsidiary of Viacom, which owns Paramount?

Simon & Schuster is is a licensee of Star Trek, but they compete with all other potential licensees when contracts are up for renewal.

 

[Sci]

As far as 1979 goes, isn't Simon and Shuster a subsidiary of Viacom, which owns Paramount?

Negatory. Simon & Schuster is a subsidiary of CBS Corporation, the corporation which owns CBS Studios, which in turn owns Star Trek and its trademarks.