200 year hole??

[RobertScorpio]

So there is about a 80-100 year gap between TOS (movies or TV show) and TNG-DS9-Voyager time...so I guess that means a 200 year gap between Enterprise and TNG-era shows...so in that time, is there any technology they were using on ENT or TOS that carried over to TNG that you thought "Hmmmmm...not much change there."...meaning, they seem to be stuck in a rut, and nothing really had changed all that much???

Was there a 200 year hole in Federation development...

Rob
Scorpio

 

[KirksFlyingFist]

Well, the computer system didn't seem to improve too much from TOS to TNG, which always struck me as kind of strange. Sure you had MORE interaction with computers in TNG, but the computing power seemed nearly identical.

 

[26138]

You would think in 200 years time, they would think to put surge protectors in the bridge consoles...

 

[Vanyel]

Nacelles: The warp nacelles are still out and away from starships and not fully integrated components. Not even the Defiant class has nacelles that are protected in the hull of the ship.

Warp drive: Other than making the engines more efficient and faster, it's still warp drive, not folded space or trans-warp or trans-warp corridors.

Weapons: In 200 years we went from muskets to Nuclear bombs. Star Trek still uses phasers and photon torpedoes and now quantum torpedoes, but nothing like the 200 year leap from muskets to nukes.

 

[trekkerguy]

Nacelles: The warp nacelles are still out and away from starships and not fully integrated components. Not even the Defiant class has nacelles that are protected in the hull of the ship.

Warp drive: Other than making the engines more efficient and faster, it's still warp drive, not folded space or trans-warp or trans-warp corridors.

Weapons: In 200 years we went from muskets to Nuclear bombs. Star Trek still uses phasers and photon torpedoes and now quantum torpedoes, but nothing like the 200 year leap from muskets to nukes.

I like all this. The idea that there is a pinnacle, at least for a long period,
of technological advancement where they can only improve existing technology.

When they started showing the Federation timeships and such in Voyager
I thought it was cool stuff, but am glad it seems we'll never reach that period.

Would get awful boring IMO if those things were the norm and not the exception.

 

[dillon3001]

Its a little hard to trump cloaking devices, phasers, shields, quantum torpedoes, warp drive, transwarp, etc from a 21st century understanding of science.

I would be interested to hear some ideas for technology on a 25th-26th century Federation starship/starbase/etc

 

[Kaziarl]

Nacelles: The warp nacelles are still out and away from starships and not fully integrated components. Not even the Defiant class has nacelles that are protected in the hull of the ship.

Warp drive: Other than making the engines more efficient and faster, it's still warp drive, not folded space or trans-warp or trans-warp corridors.

Weapons: In 200 years we went from muskets to Nuclear bombs. Star Trek still uses phasers and photon torpedoes and now quantum torpedoes, but nothing like the 200 year leap from muskets to nukes.

I like all this. The idea that there is a pinnacle, at least for a long period,
of technological advancement where they can only improve existing technology.

When they started showing the Federation timeships and such in Voyager
I thought it was cool stuff, but am glad it seems we'll never reach that period.

Would get awful boring IMO if those things were the norm and not the exception.

Personally I like to think that the timeships are part of a small section of starfleet, not part of the normal every day business. Like the Bearou of Temporal Affairs being giving the task of fixing what other time travelers mess up.

 

[trekkerguy]

^^^ That I could definitely deal with. Like Black Ops being something
behind the scenes that serves it's purpose but we don't normaly see.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I've always kinda believed that there are periods of great technological progress and then longer periods of things kinda of staying the same. There are improvements to existing technologies during these stagnant periods, but I don't think Trek tech will be that drastically different in the 34th-Century from the 24th-Century. I think there still will be phasers, tricorders, and commbadges, but they will just be more advanced versions.

And yeah, I've always considered timeships as being a small division of Starfleet (or the Temporal Integrity Commission) and not being very numerous in the fleet. There may even be only twelve other ships like the Relativity out there...

 

[Kaziarl]

I've always kinda believed that there are periods of great technological progress and then longer periods of things kinda of staying the same. There are improvements to existing technologies during these stagnant periods, but I don't think Trek tech will be that drastically different in the 34th-Century from the 24th-Century. I think there still will be phasers, tricorders, and commbadges, but they will just be more advanced versions.

And yeah, I've always considered timeships as being a small division of Starfleet (or the Temporal Integrity Commission) and not being very numerous in the fleet. There may even be only twelve other ships like the Relativity out there...

I'm not even sure there would be that many. We saw that there could be different 'temporal versions' of one character with the past, present, and future braxton (from his point of veiw anyway) so that could apply to ships too. So maybe... 5 ships? Thats probably all you would need depending on how many duplicates the timeline would allow.

I think one way to control that is to make it so one person from two times can't exist in the same time for to long. So I can't go visit and hang out with my past self for more then... say... a few days?

 

[C.E. Evans]

And yeah, I've always considered timeships as being a small division of Starfleet (or the Temporal Integrity Commission) and not being very numerous in the fleet. There may even be only twelve other ships like the Relativity out there...

I'm not even sure there would be that many. We saw that there could be different 'temporal versions' of one character with the past, present, and future braxton (from his point of veiw anyway) so that could apply to ships too. So maybe... 5 ships? Thats probably all you would need depending on how many duplicates the timeline would allow.

Well, my line of "only twelve other ships like the Relativity" was an homage to Kirk's line of "only twelve other ships like [the Enterprise]" in TOS. But I actually could see if there were only six Wells-class timeships and six of the smaller Aeon-class (timerunabouts?) in the entire fleet, with the idea that not every vessel is deployed at the same time (literally)--and that not every mission actually requires time travel.

 

[Kaziarl]

And yeah, I've always considered timeships as being a small division of Starfleet (or the Temporal Integrity Commission) and not being very numerous in the fleet. There may even be only twelve other ships like the Relativity out there...

I'm not even sure there would be that many. We saw that there could be different 'temporal versions' of one character with the past, present, and future braxton (from his point of veiw anyway) so that could apply to ships too. So maybe... 5 ships? Thats probably all you would need depending on how many duplicates the timeline would allow.

Well, my line of "only twelve other ships like the Relativity" was an homage to Kirk's line of "only twelve other ships like [the Enterprise]" in TOS. But I actually could see if there were only six Wells-class timeships and six of the smaller Aeon-class (timerunabouts?) in the entire fleet, with the idea that not every vessel is deployed at the same time (literally)--and that not every mission actually requires time travel.

Well here's a question. How many duplicates would be aloud before the timeline would have problems.

I can kind of see it as something similar to using white out to many times on a document.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Maybe they should have done something like this...


22nd century:
- no transporter
- no phase-cannons or phase-pistols (instead use those plasma weapons or what it was from "Broken Bow")
- no photonic torpedoes (instead continue to use the spatial torpedoes from seasons 1 & 2)

23rd century:
- the same technology as we know it

24th century:
- all starships have transwarp, slipstream or something like that
- Federation starships (or at least newer ships and those ships who might see combat) are regularly equipped with cloaking devices
- no photon torpedoes (instead use the quantum torpedoes beginning with the first season of TNG)
- have starships be equipped with an artificial intelligence

 

[trekkerguy]

Maybe they should have done something like this...


24th century:
- all starships have transwarp, slipstream or something like that
- Federation starships (or at least newer ships and those ships who might see combat) are regularly equipped with cloaking devices
- no photon torpedoes (instead use the quantum torpedoes beginning with the first season of TNG)
- have starships be equipped with an artificial intelligence

That would have sucked. Those things are the exact reason I would prefer
not to see a 26th, 27th etc, century Star Trek. Everything just gets way
too over the top.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

The episode "Relics" gave us a decent glimpse of the differences in technologies between Scotty & LaForge's times. Relplicators and holodecks were clearly beyond Scotty's experiences. Warp drive seems to have changed too much for him to be of much use. Impulse drive has seen little change according to Geordi.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm not even sure there would be that many. We saw that there could be different 'temporal versions' of one character with the past, present, and future braxton (from his point of veiw anyway) so that could apply to ships too. So maybe... 5 ships? Thats probably all you would need depending on how many duplicates the timeline would allow.

Well, my line of "only twelve other ships like the Relativity" was an homage to Kirk's line of "only twelve other ships like [the Enterprise]" in TOS. But I actually could see if there were only six Wells-class timeships and six of the smaller Aeon-class (timerunabouts?) in the entire fleet, with the idea that not every vessel is deployed at the same time (literally)--and that not every mission actually requires time travel.

Well here's a question. How many duplicates would be aloud before the timeline would have problems.

It would depend on how many times the timeline is being played around with. If various other individuals or factions have time travel capability, the TIC would really be the only way to stop them from changing history to fit their needs at the expense of the Federation's. The TIC could have probably prevented the Temporal Cold War in ENT, but it in itself could have been a casuality of that.

But aside from the occasional interdiction mission to fix deliberate changes in history, timeships were probably also used for scientific missions to accurately record and document historical events that have been lost or distorted over the ages...

 

[USS Excelsior]

24th century:
- all starships have transwarp, slipstream or something like that

I think what would have been a good idea is to have Transwarp Portals only where starships can't go into transwarp themselves.

This would solve plotholes like the Enterprise being able to go far out into the unknown and still be able to get back to Federation space in a short period, as well as crossing vast distances in the same episode to suit the plot.

And explain how the Federation can be 8000 light years across and stuff.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Maybe they should have done something like this...


24th century:
- all starships have transwarp, slipstream or something like that
- Federation starships (or at least newer ships and those ships who might see combat) are regularly equipped with cloaking devices
- no photon torpedoes (instead use the quantum torpedoes beginning with the first season of TNG)
- have starships be equipped with an artificial intelligence

That would have sucked. Those things are the exact reason I would prefer
not to see a 26th, 27th etc, century Star Trek. Everything just gets way
too over the top.

Well, Klingons and Romulans were already using cloaking devices in the 23rd century, and Sisko's Defiant also had one. Quantum torpedoes were used since the 3rd season of DS9, so I'm just suggesting to use it a few years earlier. As for the AI thing... well, Data and the EMH were artificial intelligences too, what damage does it do to have one more on the ship? But I guess Voyager's Doctor would have been an avatar of the ship's main computer then anyway (I was certainly watching too much of that awful Andromeda series). This leaves the Transwarp thing. Well, I guess you could have connected the Bajoran Wormhole with a distant galaxy instead of the Gamma Quadrant. And Voyager would also have been transported to another galaxy.

And the stark contrast between the 22nd and the 24th centuries like I'm suggesting it here could have made "Enterprise" a much more interesting series.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

24th century:
- all starships have transwarp, slipstream or something like that

I think what would have been a good idea is to have Transwarp Portals only where starships can't go into transwarp themselves.

This would solve plotholes like the Enterprise being able to go far out into the unknown and still be able to get back to Federation space in a short period, as well as crossing vast distances in the same episode to suit the plot.

And explain how the Federation can be 8000 light years across and stuff.

Something like the Borg's Transwarp corridors? Would have worked fine for me.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I have no problem with Timeships or cloaking devices overpowering any challenges, for two reasons:

1. No one has said exactly how reliable these technologies are. Based on what we've seen of Romulan and Klingon cloaks, the tech is very useful but definitely doesn't seem to be a trump card, by any means - shields are down if the cloak is up, can't fire phasers and wouldn't want to if you could, since that could be tracked back to reveal your location. (Photorps could be preprogrammed and pushed out the back of the ship, powered down, while the ship moved away, and then power up to go to their target - but that would also mean there would be a moment when they would be powered and at very low velocity, since they wouldn't be launched. Easy pickings for an opponents phasers. I suspect that's why we haven't seen that done.) Timeships might have all sorts of problems we don't know about - like if you miscalculate your course, you end up moving unpredictably between parallel universes instead of back or forward in your own, or risk moving through space instead of just time and coming out in the middle of a celestial body or plain lost.

2. An interesting potential series plot that combines using the two in a way that generates challenges has occurred to me - and is one of the missions my fanfic Enterprise very occasionally undertakes: historical disaster retrieval missions. Things like mocking up corpses that would pass examination by the medical community of the time, and travelling back to rescue the people who "died" on the Titanic, replacing them with the mock-ups. Sounds easy enough if everything goes smoothly, right?

My main problem with timeships is the containment issue: If Starfleet starts building timeships in the 26th century, then maybe they'd keep the number very small - say the aforementioned 13. But, by the 28th century, the tech would be all over the place - everybody would have it. You could time travel in your civilian freighter. Now, if everyone can time travel in the 28th century, they can go back to 16th century Earth (to pick a time at random) to see what it was really like - and ultimately they will. A lot of them. And they will continue to do so, until 16th century Earth is just overrun with future tourists and starships parked all over the place and in orbit above. Tourists paying for things with quatloos and gold-pressed latinum and all sorts of alien currencies, wagging their tongues about things that the locals don't know about yet, and getting their ships stolen. Before long, you've got people from the 16th century visiting the 64th century and the 10th century and creating the same problems all over and over again. Not to mention that now the Europeans who were supposed to settle North America have been forced to return home by Native Americans armed with quantum torpedoes, given to them by Chakotay's decendents.

It all becomes a big mess, really. Unless there's some mechanism to keep it from happening. And the mechanism would have to be perpetual, or the problem would just start when it stops.