10 Starship "Holy Grails"

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Dukhat, Sep 15, 2022.

  1. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    At least they didn't replace the warp engines with squared-off nacelles.
     
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  2. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    Classically, particularly during the World Wars, corvettes were often used as convoy escorts and general offshore patrol work, but without the speed or endurance of larger cruisers and battlecruisers that were often used for escort work outside the "littoral zone" once submarine began in earnest.

    Semi-official sources suggest that the Protostar is supposed to be about the same length (but somewhat less bulky) as the Defiant at 139m, which would put her in as an escort (the Defiant is over armed for her official role) https://twitter.com/Nickelodeon/status/1510336521886486528, however fan analysis has suggested a much larger design, possibly more of a cruiser.
     
  3. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't buy that the Defiant is only 139 meters long, there's already too many issues with the Defiant's size.
    Given Ex Astris Scientia already coverd the Defiant Size Problems
    I'm more inclined to go with the 170 meter length for the Defiant Class.

    The Defiant being classified as a "Escort" by StarFleet/UFP is more of a Political Word Game.

    It's like AirWolf, a Wolf in Sheeps clothing.

    That's why I made the classifications in my head cannon to be what they are.

    The ProtoStar class at 139 meters in length is closer to a "Escort Ship" in terms of size/role/fire power equivalency, while the Defiant class should be a Corvette.

    It definitely punches way above their respective weights.

    Especially any future updated iterations down the timeline in my 26th centuury Head Canon.
     
  4. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Defiant is more like a pocket battleship given it has basically an Explorer sized warp core and firepower about equal to a modernized Excelsior-class starship.
     
  5. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Pocket Cruiser or Pocket Destroyer at best.

    That's a bit "Too Much" fire power to attribute to the Defiant Class.
    It's not that amazing.
    Remember, we've seen what size a "BattleShip" should be in terms of size/firepower.

    Hell, even in Lower Decks, they chucked a BattleShip at the Star-Sytem level shields.

    That was ridiculous to sacrifice a entire Ancient BattleShip to bust a hole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2024
  6. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    That episode dropped at the beginning of November, we're still in the six-month spoiler zone.

    Also, it's not that much of a sacrifice, the ship was literally garbage. It didn't have weapons, engines, or shields, it was pretty much just a giant pointy hunk of metal.
     
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  7. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    It was still a righteously awesome scene. :D :p
     
  8. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    I didn't say that the Defiant-class was 139m, I said that if we accept the semi-official length of 139m for the Protostar, then it's a similar length to the Defiant-class at 170m.

    Relative to the "cruisers" or perhaps "frigates" (starting at the Intrepid's 344m in the generation), IMO the difference in length (but not mass, the Defiant is "bigger") between the Protostar and Defiant classes are neglible.

    The Defiant's warp core is maybe a third the size of a Galaxy-class and at least an order of magnitude less efficient in propulsion terms given that it can barely push the Defiant past warp nine while maintaining structural integrity, whereas the Galaxy class could easily make warp nine for short periods and had no structural issues up to at least nine point five.
     
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  9. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Warp velocity maybe, but power output is what I was thinking about.
     
  10. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    My point is that given that it's significantly smaller, and produces an inferior result in one tangible aspect I'm not sure how you conclude that it's equivalent?
     
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  11. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Commodore Commodore

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    The Galaxy class was originally intended to have two warp coil sets in each nacelle so the ship effectively had four engines, this was mentioned in early writers references. It was never pursued on screen and eventually discarded entirely in a later episode when we looked down the inside of a nacelle from the adjoining control room
     
  12. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    Yep, I remember that. This is why the Freedom class, Galaxy-X and other odd-numbered nacelle ships at Wolf 359 didn’t violate Roddenberry’s even-numbered nacelle “rule”, as they always operated internally as coil pairs.
     
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  13. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wonder if we might hypothesise that some Galaxy-class starships were upgraded with this concept in the mid-2370s, which is why some sources list them as being able to reach warp 9.9 instead of topping out at warp 9.6, and why the Syracuse's nacelles were obviously slightly different from the Enterprise-D's originals? We might also hypothesise that the extra weight from this denser warp coil arrangement is why Galaxy-class ships started using all three impulse engines concurrently when travelling at sublight.
     
  14. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Commodore Commodore

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    While it was fantastic to see the Enterprise D once again in Picard, I was a bit surprised to see it not using the saucer impulse engines during the high speed dance through by the Borg cube. You would think Data would have used them as off center thrust maneuvering, being positioned where they were. Most likely excused by Geordi not having them hooked up yet, but still it would have taken zero effort to add that to the 3D model (they even added rooms behind the hull windows)...
     
  15. JoseNoodles

    JoseNoodles Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I guess the TPTB figured that since the Enterprise-D never had the saucer impulse engines lit when the saucer and secondary hull were attached, they should remain dark for its resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
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  16. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Commodore Commodore

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    I remember in one episode Riker suggested separating the saucer for combat and I think Picard said it the ship remained joined they could use the impulse fusion generators to help power the systems.

    This seems to be opposite of why they would separate at all. Wolf told the renegade Klingons with a separation the ship loses a lot of bulk and becomes an impressive vombat ship.

    There is a fan film about Wolf 359 (several episodes) where Admiral Hanson is commanding the attack in a Galaxy class drive section.
    BTW- that battle is pretty well done. Show clips from TBOBW and DS9 along with complete versions of those weird kitbashed ships which get damaged to match their appearance in the battle graveyard
     
  17. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    Close, it was Shelby's idea to use the saucer as a decoy, and Riker shot it down, but since Picard witnessed the conversation, it contributed to their plan in Part II, where they did separate the saucer, even though Riker was in charge, and then launched the rescue mission from it, using the decoy plan as a double-bluff.

    I have a feeling the original intent of the line was just as much to explain why they never separated the saucer anymore. Still, context matters. Given the Borg M.O. of seizing ships in a tractor beam then slicing them up at their leisure, having one more compact, maneuverable ship with less overall power isn't going to help as much as it would against an enemy where agility matters. Though, having many smaller, more powerful, more agile ships would help, since they'd be giving each other cover from the Borg, who couldn't grab all of them at once. Keeping the ship in one piece was specifically in a situation where they were fighting a Borg cube one-on-one.

    JTVFX's work. He's got a lot of videos expanding on seen and unseen scenes in Trek. He's one of the best I've seen at capturing the look of '80s/'90s Trek VFX (and that's including DS9 and VGR when they switched to CG). There's a thread specifically on the W359 videos in Fan Productions.
     
  18. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My headcanon is that the origin for the Sovereign-class was taking a Galaxy-class stardrive with its impressive combat performance, adding back in crew facilities like lounges, libraries, and holodecks, then optimising and streamlining the design for high warp speeds and sublight manoeuvrability. While the Sovereign is barely 42% the volume of a full Galaxy, it's about 22% larger than a Galaxy stardrive on its own.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2024
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  19. publiusr

    publiusr Admiral Admiral

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  20. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Captain Captain

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    That is what I was mentioning, so thanks for adding the pic of the model :) I also noticed that the windows have been replaced with cargo doors (it looks like holes in the shot, but appears to be doors in others). I somehow looked at numerous NCC numbers and came to the conclusion that this may have been the Wambundu-class, taking a new name when it started carrying medical supplies, which is why that class gets referred to n TNG as both a cruiser and a medical transport. Adding to that the reference to "a crew of 300" in Star Trek 6, and it created a timeline that this class was found in fewer numbers and with smaller crews during the movie era, eventually having its nacelles turned sideways and its name changed when its duties changed to that of a medical transport.

    In Star Trek: the magazine, Rick Sternbach goes into great detail who sideways nacelles work with the warp field, writing from an in-universe perspective. It is an interesting article, but it does not describe the exact situation you mention. I don't think the "pairs of nacelles" rule was being followed too closely when it was written, but that does not take away from the article's value as a look into how he viewed the way warp drive works as it applies to ship configuration, especially since he was one of the people who helps build the original display model prop of that class, if I recall correctly.

    I thought that as depicted onscreen, the glowing part was the scoop that absorbed the desired particles. If it is not, and the gold vents are, then where is the corresponding part of the scoop on the TOS Enterprise?