10 Reason ST:DS9 Misjudged
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Heheheheh, clever. Surely nobody will notice it if you do it this way!
You do know how a debate works, right?
I claimed that several of the articles points are false. So far the one that people seem to disagree with me on is this one;
"#1: Serialized, not episodic."
And I belive I have proven my point on how this isn't true, so no need to get into it again.
Please quote the relevant post where I deny doing this.
You are once again confusing serialization with continuity, and now also characterization and complexity and risk taking...
I maintain that both TNG and DS9 have rich continuity / characterization / complexity / risk taking. To claim either is somehow the clear leader in any of these critieria is rediculous. They're overwhelmingly just different flavours of the same damn formula.
I also maintain that one of the differences between the two productions is that TNG did not engage in serialization of it's episode format, and DS9 did on three occassions during it's run.
A small minority of people *always* say these kind of things, that's where the misinformation actually comes from. They did it with the Motion Picture, with the Wrath of Khan, with TNG, etc etc all the way up to the recent 2009 film. That does not equate to having any meaningful impact on the show's success. My contention is not that nobody ever thought these things, it's that most people didn't think these things, and the high DS9 viewing numbers support this.
Can you imagine in 20 years somebody writing an article about how unfairly JJ Abrams "Star Trek" was treated because a tiny vocal fraction of people on the internet had complaints about it? Sure, it didn't get to "Avengers" or "Dark Knight" levels of proliferation or box office numbers, but that had no correlation to the guys and girls on the Trek BBS whining about canon violations and tonal differences with their favorite version of Star Trek. It did great, and should be remembered and celebrated for what it was.
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Well said. I'll say, I was a kid when TNG came out, and only slightly older when DS9 came on. TNG was on at 8 or 9 PM, DS9 wasn't on until 11:00 in Kansas City. Also, as an 8 year old, it's a heck of a lot easier to follow TNG than DS9, it was the cultural phenomenon, DS9 was a "spin-off". If both had aired in the age of DVR and internet viewing, DS9 would have been adored by the masses.
Because a VCR could only record one show per week.
The revisionism is getting pretty deep in here...
I wonder what would happen if we all woke up tomorrow and instead of streaming and DVRs we all had to use VCRs. Would our society still be able to function? To say that DS9 would have been accessable to a much broader audience today is wrong and laughable.
And I'm starting to feel old in that I remember what life was like with the VCR. Those were simpler times.
And I'm starting to feel old in that I remember what life was like with the VCR. Those were simpler times.
As a "converted" DS9 viewer;
When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there.
This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction.
On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there.
Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.
When I first saw DS9 I didn't like it simply because you would get lost if you tried to see the odd episode here or there.
This is not just due to the long-runing arc but also to the complexity of the characters and their interaction.
On TNG (NOT one of my favourites) the characters were much easier to follow. Interactions were far shallower so it was easy to pop-in for an odd episode here or there.
Their is no question that once you watch DS9 in order it is a completely different world.
Everyone is different...
I was probably watching six to eight episodes a season (after the first year) and never felt lost when tuning into DS9. At its core it's Star Trek and even though it had a bit more in the way of straight serialization, it was still episodic in nature for most of its run.
Right.
I never bought the notion that you had to watch every episode of a serialized show or none at all.
I always find that the "previously ..." is more for the people who actually watched it.
To remind them what happened last and to place the current episode in perspective.
I'm nto saying that you can't want DS9 bits at a time out of order but watching it in order changes it completely whereas witht he other series it doesn't make much of a difference.
To remind them what happened last and to place the current episode in perspective.
I'm nto saying that you can't want DS9 bits at a time out of order but watching it in order changes it completely whereas witht he other series it doesn't make much of a difference.
I find it hard to believe that a 10 year old would have a philosophical problem with a television show.
I also think they miss it.
Deep Space Nine was about 10-15 years too early for television and slightly out of order for the star trek series development.
It had a cast that was very diverse... much more than most shows of its era (or now)... with a black male leader, alien female second and third officers and an arab doctor. This, while wonderful for those who watched, doesn't bring in the largest audiences.
It moved away from happy endings and morality tales to long standing drama. If you watch a Nikita, Scandal, Once upon a time Hawaii Five O or a Blue Bloods today and there are long-standing plot lines and character arcs. There are imperfect heroes making imperfect decisions with complex situations compared to the Pre-DS9 invincibility of a Starfleet Captain's decision-making.
It's almost as if Voyager should have come first... so the alien of the week genre could have played out and Deep Space Nine would have felt or been invested into like a relaunch of Trek for the 21st century. As it stands... star trek quickly returned after DS9 (and during with the voyager run) to the Next Generation formula
Deep Space Nine was about 10-15 years too early for television and slightly out of order for the star trek series development.
It had a cast that was very diverse... much more than most shows of its era (or now)... with a black male leader, alien female second and third officers and an arab doctor. This, while wonderful for those who watched, doesn't bring in the largest audiences.
It moved away from happy endings and morality tales to long standing drama. If you watch a Nikita, Scandal, Once upon a time Hawaii Five O or a Blue Bloods today and there are long-standing plot lines and character arcs. There are imperfect heroes making imperfect decisions with complex situations compared to the Pre-DS9 invincibility of a Starfleet Captain's decision-making.
It's almost as if Voyager should have come first... so the alien of the week genre could have played out and Deep Space Nine would have felt or been invested into like a relaunch of Trek for the 21st century. As it stands... star trek quickly returned after DS9 (and during with the voyager run) to the Next Generation formula
Let me first say that I am in no way trivializing what happened on September 11th. 3,000 people died and two of the longest wars in our history has been waged. Islamic Extreme Terrorism is the Communism of our day. We are in jeopardy because of an attack on the mainland. My family has personally been affected by losing someone to this war, a soldier. And he signed up for duty after September 11th. The rest of this post assumes that the events were unavoidable and, therefore, set in stone.
Part of me wishes that Deep Space Nine had premiered after 9/11. I think the show would've been more timely and it would've had higher ratings. I think this because my opinions of the show now are based largely on the fact that I lived, as 17-year-old, through that event. I heard about his friends and acquaintances going off to war. Feeling the terror of a potential existential threat from a foreign invader, and dealing with the fear and anxiety of never wanting to have another attack.
As Communism changed Ronald Reagan in the 1960s, I changed my beliefs, became more liberal, after September 11th. I realized the judicious use of power, the effect of terrorism on a society (and yes, it can be effective), and the tension between a free and open society versus safety and the rule of law. Those who experienced this time as adults, as I did, were changed completely by it. I remember my reaction to the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. I am ashamed of that view because of what happened after September 11th. I claimed it was people in foreign lands, they had signed up to be in danger. That's what I thought. And even as Bin Laden had struck at the US, was on the FBI's most wanted list, it didn't strike me as something that could cause me to be touched by it personally. There was NO political will to get Bin Laden in 1993-2000. And I was a part of that. It doesn't wake me in cold sweats anymore, but I still get angry with myself.
Deep Space Nine touches on all of those topics. From trying to make peace with our enemy early on, to what that peace would look like, what we do to ourselves in the name of defense, when war is acceptable, how we wage that war, and what we are willing to do to win it. It is incredible to watch and it is dazzling that it was able to so fully flesh out the issues without having an event in our lives that made them relevant.
Part of me is glad they weren't on the air. Aaron Sorkin has spoken about how timid NBC became over stories he wished to air. His last episode on West Wing, a show that never touched more than passingly on terrorism until after September 11th, was a cliffhanger--the President's daughter has been taken and President Bartlet resigns via the 25th Amendment, putting the most powerful Republican in charge (no Vice President because of a sex scandal) because he doesn't want to make a decision as a grieving father with the powers of the Presidency.
In season 5, the second episode, Zoe Bartlet is found and she was abducted by Islamic extremists. The episodes were written by John Wells. Sorkin's story was that Zoe had been taken by Extremist Christians. He fought for the story, from what I know, and he left because it was censored.
The same thing could've happened to Deep Space Nine with regards to the Bajorans, and the thinly-veiled social problem would've been more blunt. They were creating this, not ripping from the headlines. That is why I am glad it came before September 11th.
All in all, it remains my second favorite series and the one I have thought about, even gone as far as trying to write an 8th season, because it is so relevant in my life.
Part of me wishes that Deep Space Nine had premiered after 9/11. I think the show would've been more timely and it would've had higher ratings. I think this because my opinions of the show now are based largely on the fact that I lived, as 17-year-old, through that event. I heard about his friends and acquaintances going off to war. Feeling the terror of a potential existential threat from a foreign invader, and dealing with the fear and anxiety of never wanting to have another attack.
As Communism changed Ronald Reagan in the 1960s, I changed my beliefs, became more liberal, after September 11th. I realized the judicious use of power, the effect of terrorism on a society (and yes, it can be effective), and the tension between a free and open society versus safety and the rule of law. Those who experienced this time as adults, as I did, were changed completely by it. I remember my reaction to the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. I am ashamed of that view because of what happened after September 11th. I claimed it was people in foreign lands, they had signed up to be in danger. That's what I thought. And even as Bin Laden had struck at the US, was on the FBI's most wanted list, it didn't strike me as something that could cause me to be touched by it personally. There was NO political will to get Bin Laden in 1993-2000. And I was a part of that. It doesn't wake me in cold sweats anymore, but I still get angry with myself.
Deep Space Nine touches on all of those topics. From trying to make peace with our enemy early on, to what that peace would look like, what we do to ourselves in the name of defense, when war is acceptable, how we wage that war, and what we are willing to do to win it. It is incredible to watch and it is dazzling that it was able to so fully flesh out the issues without having an event in our lives that made them relevant.
Part of me is glad they weren't on the air. Aaron Sorkin has spoken about how timid NBC became over stories he wished to air. His last episode on West Wing, a show that never touched more than passingly on terrorism until after September 11th, was a cliffhanger--the President's daughter has been taken and President Bartlet resigns via the 25th Amendment, putting the most powerful Republican in charge (no Vice President because of a sex scandal) because he doesn't want to make a decision as a grieving father with the powers of the Presidency.
In season 5, the second episode, Zoe Bartlet is found and she was abducted by Islamic extremists. The episodes were written by John Wells. Sorkin's story was that Zoe had been taken by Extremist Christians. He fought for the story, from what I know, and he left because it was censored.
The same thing could've happened to Deep Space Nine with regards to the Bajorans, and the thinly-veiled social problem would've been more blunt. They were creating this, not ripping from the headlines. That is why I am glad it came before September 11th.
All in all, it remains my second favorite series and the one I have thought about, even gone as far as trying to write an 8th season, because it is so relevant in my life.
Disagree, they're worse. Communists had an ideology rooted in reality at least.
To address your point more fully, I agree DS9 was too ahead of its time, although I don't get much of a post-9/11 vibe from it. I definitely think if DS9 was made soon after 9/11 they'd be less willing to have a religious fanatic terrorist like Kira as one of the main characters.
It's interesting how for years this was pretty much the default position for network executives about serialized storytelling, that most people aren't going to catch ep after ep, so things must be simplified. But now in the age of DVD boxsets, online streaming, DVR recordings, the public is MUCH more receptive to the idea of TV being watched in a particular order like the chapters in a book.
IMO this is a wonderful thing. The old format was an absolute drama killer and held TV back from its full dramatic potential for decades and decades. You used the word "shallower" and that's precisely what it is. It's more than possible to get amazing, excellent standalones out of that format, but nigh impossible to get genuinely interesting characters who change and grow and develop.
At first, I didn't really like DS9, but I did watch it... and grew to love it. It became my favorite of all the newer series... I used to wonder why that was... then it suddenly struck me. The 'feel' of DS9 is more like TOS than TNG,VOY or ENT.. by feel I mean the intensity, the intimacy, the grit... TNG had some, the others had little, only DS9 had all. Plus, I loved the way they created such a large ensemble where every character had a legitimate, uncontrived piece of the dramatic pie.
