• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

1 or 2 things I have not understood about Endgame

It was kinda touched on before in this thread but I too would have enjoyed it better if Janeway and crew just used the accumulated information that they gathered in the Delta Quadrant to get home instead of having future Janeway bring them home (and not come back a few days earlier for Carey).
 
Unless intense specisism was a criteria Solok used to pick his crew?

Very likely.

Solok's emotional control, if he ever had any, was obviously weak. He was an arrogant racist and openly exhibited emotion whenever it suited him. He obviously disliked humans, so it doesn't seem out of the ordinary to suggest that the reason his ship had an all-Vulcan crew was because he wanted it that way.
 
Welcome to the board.


2) Voyager wasn't "abducted" so much as they placed themselves within the sphere and from inside the sphere they were able to blow up the BORG vessel.

The ambiguity of the conversation on the bridge at the time put aside, the thing I'v never understood is why would the sphere have swallowed Voyager rather than simply continuing to punch away until it was destroyed? We hear Tuvok give the rather dire condition of the shields as they were being attacked, so presumably it wouldn't have taken much more of the same treatment to finish Voyager completely. That was the Queen's directive to the sphere after all, so why take the lengthier and roundabout method of tractoring it inside. Aside from which, the Queen's knowledge, not even assimilated from the Admiral, but viewed with her own eyes, was that Voyager was perfectly capable of using its torpedoes to destroy the sphere from the inside as effectively as it could from the exterior. So, the tactic the sphere employed doesn't exactly make sense.

Indeed, back to the story, IF the Admiral Janeway has fun with the timeline to return in the past and allow her younger Doppelgänger/the crew to return earlier (and safe and sound) but died at the end of the mission, she not only changed the future but canceled it.
Result: only Captain Janeway of the present time exists and she will live the exitence she wants ; As for Chakotay/Seven, maybe will they be married or maybe not, maybe will they die earlier than planned (but it won't be in the same conditions) or maybe not...

Well, maybe my understanding and acceptance of temporal mechanics is rather antediluvian, but whether the Admiral died or not, I believe that the timeline that she came from was not effected at all by her machinations. It continued along as it was when we viewed it, the only difference being that Janeway was simply permanently absent from it. So, both timelines are equally valid and representative in the universe's time stream going forward.

Those heartless, green-blooded bastards!

What I want to know is why was Chakotay burried on an unrealistic grassy knoll?

First, why was it necessarily unrealistic? It could have been on someone's private property. Anyway he was a nature boy after all. Where the hell would you think he would have been planted, Forest Lawn? Oops, bad example as that along with the rest of the immediate environs had long since been swallowed up. After reading through the interesting history of historic SF cemeteries and their fate, I'll just settle on Cypress Lawn, as a place for the prestigious and noteworthy.
 
I always saw the Queen as the "embodiment" of the Collective, a hub/nexus into which all data is filtered. An important role but definitely more of a figure head than an actual leader (though still with some clout to direct specific actions).
 
It was kinda touched on before in this thread but I too would have enjoyed it better if Janeway and crew just used the accumulated information that they gathered in the Delta Quadrant to get home instead of having future Janeway bring them home (and not come back a few days earlier for Carey).

It seems to me that in violating the most famous First Directive, Future Janeway only allowed Present Janeway and her crew to find a way to return on Earth (up to there, all their attempts had failed). If she hadn't intervened, Voyager would have extended its journey of about twenty additional years or worst, would have never found the way back ... even if, from the beginning, we could guess that the crew would return in Alpha Quadrant then on Earth, somehow or other.
 
Well, maybe my understanding and acceptance of temporal mechanics is rather antediluvian, but whether the Admiral died or not, I believe that the timeline that she came from was not effected at all by her machinations. It continued along as it was when we viewed it, the only difference being that Janeway was simply permanently absent from it. So, both timelines are equally valid and representative in the universe's time stream going forward.

Very fortunately, Admiral Janeway (like Seven and Chakotay) lives in Beyer's books! :)
 
It seems to me that in violating the most famous First Directive, Future Janeway only allowed Present Janeway and her crew to find a way to return on Earth (up to there, all their attempts had failed). If she hadn't intervened, Voyager would have extended its journey of about twenty additional years or worst, would have never found the way back ... even if, from the beginning, we could guess that the crew would return in Alpha Quadrant then on Earth, somehow or other.

Of course, that's how future Janeway explained it, but I say it would have been believable if they got themselves home without her. They came across slip stream, transwarp, and I'm sure they have whatever Kes did to them on file somewhere. Even without the Borg hub,they had the method of travel covered or at least close to it. Let them run into that final alien they needed to solve the problems they ran into before. Even with the Borg, they developed megaton 8472 showstoppers. It would have been believable that they could develop something against the Borg with that tech, nano adapting torpedoes mind you. It was a fine episode and all but they did not need Janeway's help if you ask me.
 
I hated the episodes, it had an All Good Things... feel to it which I thought disrespected the entire series. The series deserved it's own original tale for it's ending. Not something which didn't make any sense like "What you leave behind?" but something which would be essential to the crew and what they been through in the Delta Quadrant. It needed to be more than just Janeway talking to herself fighting the movie Borg Queen.
 
Starfleet must have been thrilled when technology from 2404 arrived on their doorstep. Unless...

Unless, the department of temporal integrity turned up seconds after the credits roll and took Voyager back.

That's why we never saw the homecoming. It all makes sense now. They were instantly taken back .
 
Maybe, since it was found along with other Delta Quadrant technologies, the 25th century tech could be lumped in as acquired DQ technology.
 
Last edited:
...the thing I'v never understood is why would the sphere have swallowed Voyager rather than simply continuing to punch away until it was destroyed?

It didn't appear to be a choice made by the Sphere. Rather, Janeway told Paris to "adjust [his/their] heading". The audience was at first supposed to think she wanted the ship to veer off and be stranded in the Delta Quadrant again. But this wasn't it: instead, Paris piloted the ship through some other maneuver. And apparently this was a maneuver that took the ship inside the Sphere, no doubt against the will of the Borg.

Sure, the Borg were using a tractor beam. But they regularly use that when they destroy ships; it's not a sign of them trying to haul in, or even to board. No maneuvering would have been needed if the Sphere were actively pulling them inside with that tractor. Yet Tom was told to maneuver. Ergo, problem eliminated, concern voided, issue solved... It was Janeway's decision, not that of the Collective.

Timo Saloniemi
 
First, why was it necessarily unrealistic? .
Now, this might be my memory assembling its own image, but it did look a little Halloween town on a paramount lot. dark, poorly lit, on a knoll, the moonlight was very artificial.
 
I think that is the case. I just watched the scene (I believe all of it) and there is no depiction of a town or structures at all. A knoll? Yes, and poorly lit, but I couldn't be sure whether there was supposed to much moonlight present at all. I will say that the the grass surrounding the marker and the tree/bushes in the background looked pretty realistic.

Hardly a burning point of contention, but if someone can take a look at the incontrovertibly tfull length of the sequence, I think the apprehension of the appearance of the scene described here, can be affirmed as being closer to the mark.
 
How come the second you said knoll, I can see Wonder Woman shooting Kennedy?

Dianna is a spring chicken in pursuit of fairy stories.

Her mum is a bit of a dick.

I think it's in Themyscira's best interest for man's world to be dissolute and fractured (countries, with no world government. How it is now.) and any threat to that, causes Hippolyta to send out her enforcer to bend all progress towards a utopia into a distopic pretzel.

If this (ass backwards thinking) is true, that would mean that Wonder Woman doesn't stand up to Wilhelm or Dolphy because they are evil men, but because they were strong enough to create a single world government which would endanger the sovereignty of an Island paradise like Themyscira.
 
I have no idea whatsoever of anything you just said, other than the first line, which is so often a wonderful thing in encountering your prodigious knowledge of all manner of backstories in the popular lexicon, Guy. The only thing that I can append to your statement, which in fact is not salient at all and needlessly immodest, is that my mother built Lynda Carter's house.:techman:
 
I thought this thread was for talking about 80's cartoon, M.A.S.K.

Anyway, as I was saying, T-bob was definitely the least annoying of the querky, comedic side-kick characters that were popular in that era.

Snarf can suck it.
 
The Mask you say? Jim Carey was OK but the comic was better.


This derail was brought to you by Skittles.
 
Starfleet must have been thrilled when technology from 2404 arrived on their doorstep. Unless...
Unless, the department of temporal integrity turned up seconds after the credits roll and took Voyager back.
That's why we never saw the homecoming. It all makes sense now. They were instantly taken back .

Maybe, since it was found along with other Delta Quadrant technologies, the 25th century tech could be lumped in as acquired DQ technology.

Please, don't forget about the 29th century, as in one, very significant and valuable item known as a mobile emitter.:techman:

It didn't appear to be a choice made by the Sphere. Rather, Janeway told Paris to "adjust [his/their] heading". The audience was at first supposed to think she wanted the ship to veer off and be stranded in the Delta Quadrant again. But this wasn't it: instead, Paris piloted the ship through some other maneuver. And apparently this was a maneuver that took the ship inside the Sphere, no doubt against the will of the Borg.

Sure, the Borg were using a tractor beam. But they regularly use that when they destroy ships; it's not a sign of them trying to haul in, or even to board. No maneuvering would have been needed if the Sphere were actively pulling them inside with that tractor. Yet Tom was told to maneuver. Ergo, problem eliminated, concern voided, issue solved... It was Janeway's decision, not that of the Collective.
Timo Saloniemi

Thank you very much for the perspective. I don't think I ever intuited the intention of that order, but as you're suggesting, it amounted to some verbal legerdemain, at least to viewers as myself who are often unable to render just a slightly altered version of 1 +1 =2. Again, please accept my appreciation!!!:techman:


I finding it somehow bracing, it sometimes rather disorienting, at how some very adept members of the community can instantaneously hijack or transmute a thread, so that a mere two or three posts later, it is totally unrecognizable. Kudos to you of fertile imaginations, voluminous knowledge of related? cultural touchstones, and the gumption to make over a conversation in your own creative vision!!!!!:cool: I guess.


I've sometimes thought about how appropriate it might have been for the voyage's successful conclusion to be as the result of an action, likely self-sacrificial, taken by Kes. To bring the story full circle and have Janeway's decision and the concomitant stranding to a highly uncertain destiny, not turn into a debt that could never be repaid. But unfortunately, there was too much that would have argued against such a concept. First, Kes had already worked her magic to significantly help Voyager. To repeat using her as a deus ex machina, would inevitably be seen as repetitive, even if the scenario built for her salvation of the ship, involved an inevitably existential struggle with the Borg, who I'm sure had to be seen as being an integral element in this final chapter. It would probably inspire complaints asking simply why she couldn't have pulled off the full job in the first instance, to which I think it could be reasonably answered that at that initial point of her transformation, she didn't yet quite possess such a capability. Secondly, given the state that Kes was left in as she departed for Ocamapa at the end of Fury, would not seem to augur for her necessarily having the constitution or drive to carry off such a final heroic act. It's just hard to see her at that point as the insuperable being coming into the full fruition of her powers as was the situation when she left the show in the Gift. Lastly, I just don't think that TPTB would cede the role of the critical player or difference maker in a series ender to a character that, regrettable as it was, never was allowed to evolve beyond a minor character, however intuitively appropriate such a closing might be reasoned to represent.

Indeed, I think that if Voyager's ultimate fate was to be able to get home, the agent of that feat almost would have to be either Janeway or Seven, the former as the leader who guided the crew safely to that point, despite innumerable threats and wild cards, and the latter, whose transformation and redemption became such an integral focus of the series in its last four seasons. The fact that time travel, always a seductively high fructose sweetener was contrived to be worked into the mix along with the Borg, of course, so prominent in the plot, made the execution of the finale as it was carried out, much more plausibly attractive and inevitable, than a risky, even if potentially more moving and evocative concept might have proved.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top