“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[eschaton]

Well, it was threatened by proxy by Lazarus and the Giant Space Amobea, who threatened the universe or the galaxy. One could also argue that Khan was a threat for Earth, if he had defeated Kirk, but then again you could make this claim about most baddies with ambitions.

Nomad and the Doomsday Machine threatened Earth, but they were dealt with long before reaching it.

The fact remains that the drama of the week mostly - often entirely - based upon how the main cast would work its way out of the current crisis. Hell, for the most part TNG was as well. This is a smart thing to do, because all good drama with emotional resonance is based upon individual characters. For a real world example, look at how the refugee crisis in Europe was mostly ignored by the U.S., until one drowned boy washed up on the beach and was photographed. Or how war movies almost always focus not on the "general's room" but on individual soldiers fighting for their lives. People just can't relate emotionally to the epic scale of a war - even when they do understand it intellectually. They can relate to the trials and tribulations of a small group of well-defined characters.

 

[Marynator]

My thought is you're going to have a totally different type of tension you're using if you're doing a show that just has single unrelated episode stories, like TOS and TNG like you say, and if you're having a show with an ongoing story that's going to last a whole season, you know what I mean? You can totally do smaller stories like they did when you're going to have everything finished in a single episode, but if you want to keep someone's attention all season then you need something bigger, don't you?

And I don't feel Discovery was really about like the epic scale of war, this was totally about this crew's story and how they participated, like we didn't see big battles taking place from an Admiral's perspective, everything was Michael's point of view and her personal involvement. She felt responsible for how things started and her captain's death, and she's there at the end making sure they don't do something atrocious just to try to win.

I did feel they kind of went too far with making Earth almost destroyed, however I sort of understand because those stakes needed to be high enough for them to consider mirror Phillipa's plan, right? But I completely feel this was a very personal story, especially for Michael.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

@Marynator, I very much agree with what you've been saying here, and I would expand on it by adding that another dramatic purpose of the war, which went hand in hand with how it affected Michael (and by extension the idealistic Federation) is that the "darkness" it brought gave Lorca a familiar environment against which he could convincingly blend in—both where the other characters, and particularly we the audience, were concerned. It made his moral ambiguity and extreme behavior seem plausible and even (at times) appropriate, where they would otherwise have been more obvious tells as to his ulterior motives and origins. An underlying theme throughout is that war is a situation that takes Spock's statement about Kirk and company's counterparts in "Mirror, Mirror" (TOS)—"it was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men"—and casts it in an entirely different light (pun not intended, but quite fitting). And as others have touched upon, I too think the use of the Mirror Universe concept was integral to making this point as well, rather than any sort of diversion.

-MMoM

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

@BillJ, as long as we're talking about the war here, I am curious as to what you intend the significance of your signature to be in this context?

"The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility, which the Klingons can no longer afford." - Captain Spock in 2296, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

DSC was quite careful to emphasize that the Klingons indeed remained "relentlessly hostile" and "unwelcoming to the Federation" during the intervening period between the time leading up to the "terror raid" that orphaned Michael (which in the flashbacks to her Vulcan education was established to be at that time the "most recent" of several) and the events of "The Vulcan Hello" (DSC), even though they were seldom seen. (T'Kuvma also mentioned them having "last battled the Federation at Donatu V," an event established in "The Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS] as having taken place 23 years prior to that episode.)

This would all seem to comport quite well with Spock's figure, which to nitpick was spoken from the standpoint of 2293. (McCoy had been Enterprise surgeon for 27 years, and this is obviously before the events of Generations, which was 30 years after Kirk had received command of the Enterprise, and 78 years before the 24th century segments, which were seven years after "Enounter At Farpoint" [TNG].) And by "hostility" Spock obviously never meant "hostilities" in the sense of open fighting, because we know with absolute certainty that those indeed remitted on a number of occasions within the span in question, including in "Errand Of Mercy" (TOS). So, again, just wondering...what is your point there? (And if it's something unrelated to DSC, please forgive the digression here.)

-MMoM

 

[BillJ]

(T'Kuvma also mentioned them having "last battled the Federation at Donatu V," an event established in "The Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS] as having taken place 23 years prior to that episode.)

So it was unremitting hostility for seventy years, except for when it wasn't? How can you have "unremitting hostility" for seventy years, when you haven't seen someone for 25-30 years of it?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

So it was unremitting hostility for seventy years, except for when it wasn't? How can you have "unremitting hostility" for seventy years, when you haven't seen someone for 25-30 years of it?

The same way you remain "unremittingly hostile" toward DSC even when you're not watching it.

It's an attitude, not an action.

-MMoM

 

[BillJ]

The same way you remain "unremittingly hostile" toward DSC even when you're not watching it.

I'm not hostile to it, I'm bored by it. Huge difference.

The discussions about it are far more fun and entertaining than the show itself. Much like Star Trek: Insurrection.

 

[Marynator]

Oh dear, I'm sorry to say this BillJ, but from my observation you do appear very hostile and not merely bored, I mean you even dedicate your signature to your anger towards Discovery, right? I feel bored would be you just aren't interested and you ignore it, but you don't seem able to pass up any opportunity to deride Discovery, possibly even really going out of your way to find opportunities. At least that's how you appear from my perspective, if you're not meaning to be this way my suggestion would be to consider your feelings and how you're expressing them from another point of view.

@The Mighty Monkey of Mim I love your thoughts on the war and Captain Lorca! I was really wondering about him because of what Spock said in Mirror Mirror, and I feel your idea makes absolute total sense to me. Could he have gotten by without a war with the Klingons? Well even with this war he really seemed out of place, like something was wrong with him, but he was able to fake things a little bit better because of his circumstances and he had something he could direct his violent nature towards. I feel Michael also really helped him, because with her he had a sort of long term plan he was entertaining in his mind. I totally feel the whole mirror universe adventure was very important for several reasons, but your post just really makes me appreciate just how brilliantly everything ties together in this story.

 

[BillJ]

Oh dear, I'm sorry to say this BillJ, but from my observation you do appear very hostile and not merely bored...

It shows just how little you know about me.

 

[Jinn]

So it was unremitting hostility for seventy years, except for when it wasn't? How can you have "unremitting hostility" for seventy years, when you haven't seen someone for 25-30 years of it?

I don't really see a continuity error here at all, according to MA "Multiple characters state Starfleet has barely had any contact with the Klingons for a century" this can still mean that there are hostilities between the goverments of the Federation and the Empire. Just that they weren't military most of the time.

 

[BillJ]

I don't really see a continuity error here at all, according to MA "Multiple characters state Starfleet has barely had any contact with the Klingons for a century" this can still mean that there are hostilities between the goverments of the Federation and the Empire. Just that they weren't military most of the time.

Difference of opinion.

 

[Marynator]

I don't really see a continuity error here at all, according to MA "Multiple characters state Starfleet has barely had any contact with the Klingons for a century" this can still mean that there are hostilities between the goverments of the Federation and the Empire. Just that they weren't military most of the time.

Like how the United States and Soviet Union were hostile all throughout the Cold War but never actually had any direct military conflict, right?

 

[BillJ]

Like how the United States and Soviet Union were hostile all throughout the Cold War but never actually had any direct military conflict, right?

We didn't "hardly see" the Soviet Union or have limited contact with them. We had contact all the time, Discovery said contact was very limited over the last century IIRC.

 

[Jinn]

We didn't "hardly see" the Soviet Union or have limited contact with them. We had contact all the time, Discovery said contact was very limited over the last century IIRC.

Chrissie really needs to add DSC to her transcript side ASAP. I can't do this with only MA info!

(From what I gather there's legal stuff that prohibits that though)

 

[Tuskin38]

I'm sure when the DVD's blu-rays come out people can rip the subtitle data.

 

[Jinn]

I'm sure when the DVD's blu-rays come out people can rip the subtitle data.

We truly live in an age of technological wonder. EVen DVDs have blue-rays now!

 

[BillJ]

GEORGIOU: Michael. Almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years.

The Federation and the Klingon Empire have always been on the cold side of war. We've had only fleeting run-ins with them for a century.

https://www.springfieldspringfield....-show=star-trek-discovery-2017&episode=s01e01

People can make of the above lines whatever they will...

 

[Tuskin38]

We truly live in an age of technological wonder. EVen DVDs have blue-rays now!

Whoops, lmao.

T'Kuvma in Episode 1 mentions some battle that was mentioned in TOS IIRC.

 

[BillJ]

T'Kuvma in Episode 1 mentions some battle that was almost mentioned in TOS IIRC.

Donatu V.

 

[Tuskin38]

Donatu V.

Thank you.

Also wow the formatting on that site is horrible.
But it works.