“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[eschaton]

Lucas knew the kind of story people wanted.
A few days ago I re-watched the movie Fox thought was going to be their sci fi blockbuster of 1977. Damnation Alley is a strange badly made pile of giant scorpion droppings with no redeeming value and up until the bizarre tacked on ending, no hope. The first Star wars movie is called A New Hope. you expect up's and downs, of course. Everyone enjoys a tragedy on some level. But there has to be something gained from it. There was a lot gained from Empire Strikes Back. What was gained from Revenge of the Sith? It wasn't as bad as Attack of the Clowns. But even it is much better as it at least fleshes out an interesting time period, a kind of corrupt civilization that was going to be swept away one way or another, either from within or from without.

Last Jedi is just having your metaphorical head held in a toilet while Jonson drones on about iconoclasm.

IMHO Episode VI was a good, but not great movie. It's fundamentally just a westernized samurai movie, with the "monomyth" as the main plot arc, with really, really excellent design work done. It was the right movie at the right time however, which is why it took off like wildfire.

The Empire Strikes Back was a fantastic movie, however - in large part because Lucas didn't write the screenplay.

 

[mos6507]

There's no rule that says that if a character hasn't been seen by the audience in x number of years that in-universe it means he must have run away and become a recluse. It's perfectly OK for him to have been active all that time and to drop the audience back in in-medias-res. Of course, that starts things off with the audience trying to get reoriented, but it can and has worked before.

As far as the SW vs. ST parallels, a lot of where they go with Picard probably revolves around whether the show is intending to promote a next-next generation or not. You know, the equivalent of Rey and Kylo, or more appropriately, Decker & Ilia (circa Phase II) or Saavik.

It sounds to me like Picard is meant to be the protagonist, not just a mentor, even if he starts out in some sort of inactive state. If they wanted to promote fresh young characters they probably would have cast someone already and had him/her up there on stage with Stewart right from the get-go.

 

[ITDUDE]

*reads first page of thread* Picard
*reads last page of thread* Luke Skywalker
*thinks* Yeah, that sounds about right for a thread on TrekBBS

 

[Groppler Zorn]

I disagree completely.


Lmao no it wasn't.

This is like that Monty Python sketch where the guy thinks he’s getting an argument and the other guy just contradicts him

 

[Groppler Zorn]

The message of TLJ was not 'Kill the past', that was what Kylo thought.

The message was to not get bogged down in the past and to keep moving forward. The past can empower and inspire, but you shouldn't live there.

To be fair, wasn’t the message “failure is ok because the past is meant to be surpassed”? I’m paraphrasing what Yoda said.

And if we shouldn’t live in the past, then... it’s time... for DSC... to end

 

[Groppler Zorn]

I actually see nothing wrong with fleshing out backstory. For me...THATS actually unique given the 750+ hours of individual Star Trek episodes and movies we have. I'm actually just tired of the formula, so the fact that they are driving with a different focus now (re-visiting established lore) for ME is a refreshing change.

Some call it pandering, nostalgia-capitalizing fanwank. I call it a new direction that I'm pleased with. Another ship/space station with yet another crew (Orville) would be nice, but nothing I'd care about with any passion at this point. I like having some tie to / expansion upon an era I care about that hasn't been nearly as fleshed out as some pretend (3 seasons and 6 movies vs 21 seasons and 4 movies).

You know I’d not thought about it that way. I’ve got that mosaic book that tells captain janeway’s backstory and it’s quite good. Shame more of it didn’t make it into Voyager actually.

Ok, viewpoint adjusted, thanks!

 

[Kane_Steel]

This is what worries me to an extent. It’s like cbs said “what do we got that people like? Star Trek. Ok cool make that. But make it modern so new people will watch it not just geeks”.

And DSC did ok enough for them to think “so that went well enough - but we want more CBSAA subscribers. Who else do people know and like? Picard. Ok cool make that. But make it modern so other people watch it...”

So Picard will turn up in a long leather coat and have a gravelly voice and a “done with life” attitude and will have shut himself off from the force.

Concurrently on DSC it’ll be “so what do people like about this show? The Enterprise. Ok cool make that - in fact, make the Enterprise a new show altogether! But you know, modern etc.”

And before long we’ll see Pike rescue a young blonde haired lad from the colony run by Kodos. And he’ll see greatness in him. And he’ll leave him in command one day despite the objections of all his senior officers including Spock who will have an emotional meltdown. But the young lad will do fine because this is his destiny (see Gotham for comparative storyline).

Yay more Star Trek on tv!

“Will it be any good?”, you ask...

Looks like CBS All Access, STD and all the spinoffs will indeed have some massive competition in 2019:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/420023-jon-favreaus-star-wars-series-has-a-100-million-budget


The Disney Streaming Service, especially after acquiring Fox, has the potential to destroy CBS All Access next year. Consumers having to pay for multiple networks won't work.

This is why CBS is specifically targeting the Star Trek fanbase to keep the money flowing. This is indeed a calculated business move.

 

[fireproof78]

Last Jedi is just having your metaphorical head held in a toilet while Jonson drones on about iconoclasm.

Funny, that's what I heard people say about TPM.

 

[Tuskin38]

To be fair, wasn’t the message “failure is ok because the past is meant to be surpassed”? I’m paraphrasing what Yoda said.

And if we shouldn’t live in the past, then... it’s time... for DSC... to end

Well it wasn't forgot the past, because the movie kept beating the past into our heads.

Luke embraced the past by helping the Resistance, Rey took the books from the tree.

And we're off topic and won't say anymore about Star Wars :P

 

[XCV330]

Looks like CBS All Access, STD and all the spinoffs will indeed have some massive competition in 2019:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/420023-jon-favreaus-star-wars-series-has-a-100-million-budget


The Disney Streaming Service, especially after acquiring Fox, has the potential to destroy CBS All Access next year. Consumers having to pay for multiple networks won't work.

This is why CBS is specifically targeting the Star Trek fanbase to keep the money flowing. This is indeed a calculated business move.

CBS All Access is expected to have 8 million viewers by 2019, must faster then their projections. Clearly they are doing something right. There's no competition between Star Wars and Star Trek streams. People will get either, or both services, depending on what they want.

 

[Vger23]

You know I’d not thought about it that way. I’ve got that mosaic book that tells captain janeway’s backstory and it’s quite good. Shame more of it didn’t make it into Voyager actually.

Ok, viewpoint adjusted, thanks!

No problem! I certainly don't need or expect you to agree with that, I just wanted you to know where my thinking was coming from

 

[gottacook]

The first Star wars movie is called A New Hope. you expect up's and downs, of course.

Evidently you believe the title "A New Hope" was used in the original release. It wasn't. The movie that I first saw during Memorial Day weekend 1977, and at least twice more during its initial year-long run, was called simply Star Wars. That awful "ANH" title, accompanied by "Episode IV", wasn't stuck onto Star Wars until after 1980, after its sequel's opening crawl began "Episode V / The Empire Strikes Back".

It seems you youngsters have to be firmly but affectionately re-educated about this from time to time.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

No problem! I certainly don't need or expect you to agree with that, I just wanted you to know where my thinking was coming from

No worries I'd genuinely not considered it from that angle. If they decide to go down that route and explore Picard’s character in more detail I’m all for it. Some of my favourite episodes of TNG (and all Trek really) are ones where they spend a lot of time talking and developing the characters. “Ensigns of command” and “who watches the watchers” are personal favourites. In the former Data learns how to be a leader and strong negotiator - while Picard is awesome on the ship against the Sheliak - and in the latter Picard learns that the prime directive is all well and good if you can avoid breaking it. If it’s already been broken then you have a choice as to how you deal with it. He could have left the Mintakans believing him to be a god and setting down commandments. He could have destroyed the duck blind and left Palmer to die. Instead he appealed to the logic and sense of the people and, primitive though they were, he treated them like rational, logical beings who deserved the truth regardless of their level of development.

To swing back to DSC - since that’s what I started the thread about - the closest they came to the level of storytelling in “watchers” was when they were dealing with the tardigrade and they resolve to let it go.

If they did try to introduce more of that kind of storytelling into the Picard show, I’d hope there’d be similar themes and issues on DSC - not that they’d have to be linked at all, unless Michael is still alive in 2399 - but to have a similar approach to storytelling on a thematic level would be nice.

 

[XCV330]

Evidently you believe the title "A New Hope" was used in the original release. It wasn't. The movie that I first saw during Memorial Day weekend 1977, and at least twice more during its initial year-long run, was called simply Star Wars. That awful "ANH" title, accompanied by "Episode IV", wasn't stuck onto Star Wars until after 1980, after its sequel's opening crawl began "Episode V / The Empire Strikes Back".

It seems you youngsters have to be firmly but affectionately re-educated about this from time to time.

It was in the opening scrawl. It wasn't the name of the movie, it WAS the name of the episode. Lucas was making an homage to the old serials of the 30's and 40's. He just didn't start with episode 1. You were in the theater, so you saw that.
Anyway, I'm done talking about Star Wars. Kriff star wars.

edited to add: thanks for calling me a youngster. It is true I did not see SW the year it came out. I had to wait until a year or two later. My folks thought I was too young, and that it would be too scary. Instead in their always bizarre logic, they took me to Damnation Alley.

 

[Tuskin38]

It was in the opening scrawl

They're right though, 'Episode IV - A New Hope' wasn't added to the crawl until the re-showings in 1981.

 

[Graham]

I was overjoyed at the thought of a new Picard show, as many are.

However.

Now I think about it... I can't really believe that this is going to be what I initially thought it would. That is to say, I don't think this is actually going to be a Prime universe sequel to TNG.

If I had to bet, I would say that what they're going to do is use Stewart / Picard to try and bring credibility to the Discovery universe. So for instance, I think we will likely see Picard talking to the Discovery Klingorcs as if they are Klingons. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they try and get Michael Dorn into Klingorc makeup and call the result Worf.

And you can bet there is going to be that scene, where Picard says something like "Ah yes, there are some great vessels in Starfleet history... the Enterprise is only one. There is also the Yorktown, the Franklin, the Discovery..." Or makes some fawning comment about how Michael Burnham was the greatest officer in all of history and a personal role model of his.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But at this point I have absolutely no faith that the people making these shows can produce a good Star Trek series. Or even that they want to.

Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Tuskin38]

I was overjoyed at the thought of a new Picard show, as many are.

However.

Now I think about it... I can't really believe that this is going to be what I initially thought it would. That is to say, I don't think this is actually going to be a Prime universe sequel to TNG.

If I had to bet, I would say that what they're going to do is use Stewart / Picard to try and bring credibility to the Discovery universe. So for instance, I think we will likely see Picard talking to the Discovery Klingorcs as if they are Klingons. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they try and get Michael Dorn into Klingorc makeup and call the result Worf.

And you can bet there is going to be that scene, where Picard says something like "Ah yes, there are some great vessels in Starfleet history... the Enterprise is only one. There is also the Yorktown, the Franklin, the Discovery..." Or makes some fawning comment about how Michael Burnham was the greatest officer in all of history and a personal role model of his.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But at this point I have absolutely no faith that the people making these shows can produce a good Star Trek series. Or even that they want to.

Time will tell, I guess.

They said it wasn't a reboot onstage.

 

[Graham]

They said it wasn't a reboot onstage.

Who said what wasn't a reboot?

 

[Kane_Steel]

s something like "Ah yes, there are some great vessels in Starfleet history... the Enterprise is only one. There is also the Yorktown, the Franklin, the Discovery..." Or makes some fawning comment about how Michael Burnham was the greatest officer in all of history and a personal role model of his.

This would be hilarious. It's going to happen and will be amusing to see. No doubt they'll have Spock and likely Kirk also singing Burnham's praises. The cringe when they start talking about the inspirational Starfleet legend Captain Tilly...

 

[Graham]

This would be hilarious. It's going to happen and will be amusing to see. No doubt they'll have Spock and likely Kirk also singing Burnham's praises. The cringe when they start talking about the inspirational Starfleet legend Captain Tilly...

"You know, I read all her starship logs as a child. It's what inspired me to want to be part of Starfleet in the first place. Just the thought that I could be part of the institution she was part of... I felt like if I became the best officer I possibly could, it would be almost like I was winning her approval. And if you cadets do the best job you possibly can, she may smile down from heaven upon you, too."