“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[fireproof78]

Why introduce the fake drama of having Kirk die only to bring him back again 20 minutes later?

Yes, I know it exactly mirrored the end of TWOK, but remember that wasn't even resolved until the next movie. And one could argue (I certainly would) that that wasn't a touching tribute at all, but a cynical ripoff of a classic and emotionally touching scene.

One could make that argument but I think it misses the point of the character drama, rather than coming at it as strictly an audience member. If one places themselves in Kirk's mindset, he has no way of knowing he will live, neither does Spock, neither does Kirk. The drama doesn't come from the end result, but Kirk's choice, in defiance of his assertion that there is no "no win" scenario.

He learns a whole lot more than is given credit for because of superficial reading of the scene, including "cynical" descriptors.

 

[eschaton]

Why not? It was a good moment in the Kirk/Spock friendship. No reason to wait until the next film to resolve it.

One reason I had issue with it is that Kirk and Spock did not have this deep, long-lasting friendship in the Kelvinverse. They initially hated one another in ST09, and have only been serving together for a couple of years. I mean, we know they had this great friendship in TOS, but those were different characters - none of that matters here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One reason I had issue with it is that Kirk and Spock did not have this deep, long-lasting friendship in the Kelvinverse. They initially hated one another in ST09, and have only been serving together for a couple of years. I mean, we know they had this great friendship in TOS, but those were different characters - none of that matters here.

That's the point. It was a defining moment/turningpoint in their friendship in the Kelvinverse.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One could make that argument but I think it misses the point of the character drama, rather than coming at it as strictly an audience member. If one places themselves in Kirk's mindset, he has no way of knowing he will live, neither does Spock, neither does Kirk. The drama doesn't come from the end result, but Kirk's choice, in defiance of his assertion that there is no "no win" scenario.

He learns a whole lot more than is given credit for because of superficial reading of the scene, including "cynical" descriptors.

Exactly.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I haven’t seen Black Panther yet (to be fair, I haven’t seen...well, most of the MCU) but, it is and American superhero movie set in an imagined Africa with imagined African Characters. I am hoping it’s as good as people say when I get round to it, and have no reason to doubt that it is. Not even the tiniest doubt. T’Challa etc are all Marbel characters Excelsior! But they are not African characters, they are American characters, like Cap and Thor and Iron Man etc. I would make a pithy comment about Mary Poppins and Dick Van Dyke, but there at least, the source material and one of the leads was actuallyBritish, and as I say, I hear good things about the movie, so it’s unfair to make my comment about the movie when really my comment is about the idea than a very old Hollywood movie machine can somehow make an ‘African’ movie or superhero.
In those respects, I think Blade is very very much being unfairly forgotten, and spoke very much (as I understand it) about African Americans, and ‘race relations’ in a wider context. Personally, though it’s a violent action film about vampires, I think the subtexts are very powerful, and there’s something really great in the relationship between whistler and blade and how it transcends race and blood and what have you.

So black panther better be amazing if it’s gonna top Blade. XD
Having not seen it, I suppose worst case scenario it’s like Coming To America with superheroes. And even that films enjoyable if you ignore some of the more....difficult bits. Good luck to it (Like it needs me wishing it that, film is rolling in money and acclaim lol.)

At least it didn’t do a memoirs of a geisha.

Black Panther is an african american superhero movie. Obviously that doesn't make it a truly 'african' movie in the sense you're talking about, but that sense also isn't all that relevant considering the film's really about the african american community and how they relate to africa and america separately and together.

And I don't believe Blade's really been forgotten at all because:

Is Blade a superhero? He was introduced in the Tomb of Dracula comic (A horror series) as a vampire hunter.

We have a winner! Blade is a vampire hunter who happens to inhabit a superhero world. Hyperfans who know all the background may associate him with superheroes because he's a Marvel character. But the general audience sees a vampire hunter killing vampires in a vampire movie with no superheroes in sight. As far as the overarching communal conversation is concerned (where the general audience outnumbers the long-term fans by a mile), Blade simply isn't relevant to Black Panther. Two different genres. It would be like saying 'but what about The Book of Eli/I Am Legend/Shaft'?

 

[jaime]

Is Blade a superhero? He was introduced in the Tomb of Dracula comic (A horror series) as a vampire hunter.

I would say yes. Vampires etc and blade were all in continuity with the rest of the Marvel universe at the time, and still are.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I would say yes. Vampires etc and blade were all in continuity with the rest of the Marvel universe at the time, and still are.

Personally, I'd say no in general, myself. Though my impression of the character is largely based on the movies, so maybe he's different in the comics. But I don't count a character as a 'superhero' just because they happen to be a Marvel hero.

 

[thribs]

I was listening to the latest Never Not Funny podcast where they suggested it’ll be a chat show with Picard called the Ready Room with Jean-Luc. I don’t know who will be his side kick though.
Wesley Crusher will be his Matt Damon. Refusing to let him on.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Is Blade a superhero? He was introduced in the Tomb of Dracula comic (A horror series) as a vampire hunter.

Probably not in the strictest sense but I was referring to the marvel superhero genre rather than blade being a superhero.

He does have some superhuman abilities, mind you. And he’s kind of an anti-hero so I think the definition broadly fits.

 

[jaime]

Personally, I'd say no in general, myself. Though my impression of the character is largely based on the movies, so maybe he's different in the comics. But I don't count a character as a 'superhero' just because they happen to be a Marvel hero.

Super power, with origin story, is a ‘goodie’ and lives on Earth 616. What makes him any different to say..Captain America? Or Thor?

 

[jaime]

Black Panther is an african american superhero movie. Obviously that doesn't make it a truly 'african' movie in the sense you're talking about, but that sense also isn't all that relevant considering the film's really about the african american community and how they relate to africa and america separately and together.

And I don't believe Blade's really been forgotten at all because:



We have a winner! Blade is a vampire hunter who happens to inhabit a superhero world. Hyperfans who know all the background may associate him with superheroes because he's a Marvel character. But the general audience sees a vampire hunter killing vampires in a vampire movie with no superheroes in sight. As far as the overarching communal conversation is concerned (where the general audience outnumbers the long-term fans by a mile), Blade simply isn't relevant to Black Panther. Two different genres. It would be like saying 'but what about The Book of Eli/I Am Legend/Shaft'?

Blade is The Day Walker. He has superpowers even by vampire standards.

 

[eschaton]

That's the point. It was a defining moment/turningpoint in their friendship in the Kelvinverse.

No, the point was to attempt a cheap cash in on TOS nostalgia.

Honestly while STID wasn't the worst movie in the Trek pantheon, it's a great example of why reboots are bad. The entire fucking plot of that movie only has full resonance if you are a Trek fan - and if you have knowledge of the characters outside of the Kelvinverse. The movie wants to have it both ways - being free to break with established continuity but also to treat the characters as the exact same people as in TOS when convenient.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I would say yes. Vampires etc and blade were all in continuity with the rest of the Marvel universe at the time, and still are.

Doesn't make him a superhero.IMO.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Super power, with origin story, is a ‘goodie’ and lives on Earth 616. What makes him any different to say..Captain America? Or Thor?

I honestly can't fully compare the comics versions - I've only seen Blade in a comic once or twice.

Based on the movie versions, I'd say there are a couple of differences. Blade doesn't have a unique look or visual hook of any kind. He just looks like a badass in general. That's more appropriate to the action hero genre than the superhero one. His 'mission' seems to have more to do with revenge than any actual heroism. Yeah, he saves some people and (it's been quite a while, so I'm trying to recall this off the top of my head) I'm pretty sure he has the whole 'learn to care about this innocent person and try to save them' plot going on in his first film, but on the whole, he fights vampires because he hates vampires. Three, his superpowers are not different from the (many many) people he's fighting, except that he can stand daylight, which isn't that much of a power. I guess it came in useful once or twice? But overall, he beats the vampires up with his fists and weapons and its not his powers or his incredibly irreplaceable technology which allows him to do that. He's just a badass, in general. Again, more action hero than superhero.

For me a superhero is: visually distinctive, actively heroic, possessing unique/special powers that aren't the exact same powers everyone else around them possesses, and possessing real independence of thought. That's a broad strokes definition, and it's not so much that no superhero can ever deviate from any of that in any way as it is that the more clearly those notes are hit, the more 'superhero-like' I would consider the character. Blade, imo, based on my memories is unquestionably number four, only just barely number three, arguably not number two at all and definitely not number one. In other words, he's a bit of an edge case, but I personally come down on the line of not a superhero. At least, in the movies.

 

[DaveyNY]

I am still wondering what the new Picard show will be like...

Odds are it'll end up being either like the new remake of "Murphy Brown" another version of "CSI" or some combination of both.
Cause this is CBS we're talking about.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, the point was to attempt a cheap cash in on TOS nostalgia.

Nah.

 

[Turtletrekker]

"The journey has begun."

https://m.facebook.com/patrickstewart/photos/a.877537239000850/1946121698809060/?type=3&source=48

 

[jaime]

No, the point was to attempt a cheap cash in on TOS nostalgia.

Honestly while STID wasn't the worst movie in the Trek pantheon, it's a great example of why reboots are bad. The entire fucking plot of that movie only has full resonance if you are a Trek fan - and if you have knowledge of the characters outside of the Kelvinverse. The movie wants to have it both ways - being free to break with established continuity but also to treat the characters as the exact same people as in TOS when convenient.

That was very much my problem with it. To really hit, you have to know TWOK, and TWOK is so well regarded that making people think of it so damn much in a lesser film is a really bad idea. This Kirk and Spock just don’t have the relationship to have the emotional punch they had in TWOKs end scenes, so reminding your viewers of this is a really bad idea. It’s like walking a steak past someone eating a veggie burger for health reasons, and telling them the veggie burger is a bit like steak. If they squint.

 

[jaime]

Doesn't make him a superhero.IMO.

Has powers. Fights baddies. Is hated and feared. He’s an X gene short of a bunk in Charlie’s mansion, and probably gets invited to parties anyway, given the Vampire/x men history. And he’s literally one up on T’Challa, who (and I could be mistaken) has basically the Batman power set (money, training, tech) and who is Storms plus one at parties. And I believe the film version debuted the flickering Marvel movies logo. It’s the forgotten start of the MCU.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Has powers. Fights baddies. Is hated and feared. He’s an X gene short of a bunk in Charlie’s mansion, and probably gets invited to parties anyway, given the Vampire/x men history. And he’s literally one up on T’Challa, who (and I could be mistaken) has basically the Batman power set (money, training, tech) and who is Storms plus one at parties. And I believe the film version debuted the flickering Marvel movies logo. It’s the forgotten start of the MCU.

I disagree.

Also, unlike Blade's tech that Whistler manufactures out of the back of a van, Black Panther's technology is actually unique and irreplaceable. Also, Black Panther has powers on top of the technology, too, which makes him the actual one-up over Blade/Batman.

And the marvel movies logo really means nothing to anyone. People just don't remember Blade as a superhero movie, or a marvel movie. They remember it as a vampire movie. Which makes perfect sense because it has far more in common with vampire movies than superhero ones, and it was released at a time when vampires were pretty successful overall.

Its definitely not the start of the mcu in any way shape or form, no more than X-men, Spider-man, Howard the Duck, Batman 89 or Superman the Movie (all of which could just as easily take credit as influences). The MCU is a clearly defined franchise that started with Iron Man and not before.