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“First Vulcan to graduate at the head of her class”

I think you're on to something. Michael Burnham was commissioned into Starfleet without attending the Academy, having gotten her education of Vulcan. Many Vulcans in Starfleet might've transferred in. That still leaves the question of how Spock, widely-recognized as a super-genius even by Vulcan standards, didn't graduate at the head of his class, but that could be down to some specific aspect of how Starfleet calculates GPA that Spock didn't find it logical to indulge in merely for the sake of having a higher numerical ranking (say, he would've had to take an additional course to push up his average grade that he expected to have no use for in his career, and believed there were better uses of his time and effort).

If Spock's goal was to graduate No1 at SFA, then he would have. "being the first Vulcan to attend SFA"
was more notable then he graduated at the top of his class?
I can see Vulcans being given SF commissions based on Vulcan space service experience. Not certain about a ship entirely Vulcans, short of special circumstances or influence.
 
Any particular reason he SHOULD have been?
Only that he’s a main character, and I’d rather one of “our guys” have that distinction. And besides, not being at the top of his class doesn’t make sense for his character. I don’t need him to be the first, but I need him to have done it before Valeris.
 
Only that he’s a main character, and I’d rather one of “our guys” have that distinction. And besides, not being at the top of his class doesn’t make sense for his character. I don’t need him to be the first, but I need him to have done it before Valeris.
But you have no idea who else was in his class. Just because someone is good doesn’t mean there aren’t other people who are good.

Also there are plenty of geniuses and people who don’t excel at “school” and then go on to do great things.
 
And besides, not being at the top of his class doesn’t make sense for his character.

I think it does. He may have been the smartest person in the room, but that doesn't automatically translate to getting the best grades. Sometimes being above the curve makes you feel alienated or bored in class -- like how I felt in elementary-school English class when I was already reading at an adult level. Also, often the cool, socially adept achievers do better in school than the nerdy introverts, because they do better in group projects, participate more in social activities or sports, maybe impress their teachers more, that sort of thing. (Although my English teachers usually loved me. Others, not always so much. And I never got good grades in gym.)

Also, to some extent, academic achievement is probably a matter of ambition, actively campaigning to earn a position like valedictorian or class president or something. So I think Valeris earning the status that Spock didn't proves that she was not only brilliant, but ambitious and status-seeking in a way Spock never was.
 
But you have no idea who else was in his class. Just because someone is good doesn’t mean there aren’t other people who are good.

Also there are plenty of geniuses and people who don’t excel at “school” and then go on to do great things.
I mean, sure. That doesn’t seem like Spock, though. I’d be more than happy to believe that there was some other Vulcan or Coluan or whoever that was better than him, but my main complaint is that Valeris shouldn’t be “the first”. There should be others before her.
 
I think it does. He may have been the smartest person in the room, but that doesn't automatically translate to getting the best grades. Sometimes being above the curve makes you feel alienated or bored in class -- like how I felt in elementary-school English class when I was already reading at an adult level. Also, often the cool, socially adept achievers do better in school than the nerdy introverts, because they do better in group projects, participate more in social activities or sports, maybe impress their teachers more, that sort of thing. (Although my English teachers usually loved me. Others, not always so much. And I never got good grades in gym.)

Also, to some extent, academic achievement is probably a matter of ambition, actively campaigning to earn a position like valedictorian or class president or something. So I think Valeris earning the status that Spock didn't proves that she was not only brilliant, but ambitious and status-seeking in a way Spock never was.
I could see the kid who ran off to do his kahs-wan being very concerned about his status as a student. He had already drawn a line in the sand by not going to the Vulcan Science Academy, he’s not going to half ass Starfleet Academy. And if he doesn’t necessarily care about grades, he’s never going to tank a class or anything. He’s going to be at the top just by virtue of being himself.
 
I could see the kid who ran off to do his kahs-wan being very concerned about his status as a student.

The kahs-wan was to prove himself to himself. That's a hell of a lot different from seeking status in the eyes of others.

He had already drawn a line in the sand by not going to the Vulcan Science Academy, he’s not going to half ass Starfleet Academy.

Of course not, but the Academy's system is set up to put command officers on top. The valedictorians are probably people who go on to captain starships and command starbases and end up as flag officers. But Spock "never wished to command." He just wanted to do science. He never got to the top of the rank structure, never became an admiral, because he wasn't interested in the avenue of achievement that Starfleet rates most highly. Why assume the Academy would've been any different? He may have been the best science student in the Academy's history, but that wouldn't be the same as being on top as a command candidate.

There's also the fact that Starfleet is a military institution and Spock was raised in a pacifistic culture. As such, he may have avoided or underperformed at some of the more martial aspects of Starfleet training and thus had a gap in his achievement. Maybe that's why no Vulcan has ever topped the class before -- because being on top in the military isn't just about smarts or science, but martial prowess. We know Valeris was rather more, err, bellicose than your typical Vulcan.

Or maybe it's just that by Valeris's time, there have been more nonhuman students and the Academy standards have been reformed to be less human-centric, fairer in assessing the performance of nonhumans.
 
I think it does. He may have been the smartest person in the room, but that doesn't automatically translate to getting the best grades. Sometimes being above the curve makes you feel alienated or bored in class -- like how I felt in elementary-school English class when I was already reading at an adult level. Also, often the cool, socially adept achievers do better in school than the nerdy introverts, because they do better in group projects, participate more in social activities or sports, maybe impress their teachers more, that sort of thing. (Although my English teachers usually loved me. Others, not always so much. And I never got good grades in gym.)

Also, to some extent, academic achievement is probably a matter of ambition, actively campaigning to earn a position like valedictorian or class president or something. So I think Valeris earning the status that Spock didn't proves that she was not only brilliant, but ambitious and status-seeking in a way Spock never was.
At primary school I was told to do the recap on the book that was being read aloud. Problem was I was bored and was reading ahead, so delivered big spoilers...
 
I could see the kid who ran off to do his kahs-wan being very concerned about his status as a student. He had already drawn a line in the sand by not going to the Vulcan Science Academy, he’s not going to half ass Starfleet Academy. And if he doesn’t necessarily care about grades, he’s never going to tank a class or anything. He’s going to be at the top just by virtue of being himself.

Like I said, that depends on how Starfleet Academy calculates class ranking. When I was in high school, for instance, class placement came from the "weighted" GPA, where grades in college-level courses were worth more than normal courses, and everyone who was near the top of our class was pumping up their GPA by taking additional college-level classes outside of the regular school day on-line or at the local community college. You couldn't become valedictorian accidentally just by doing perfectly at everything that was assigned to you, you had to be trying for it.

After some light Googling I've found that, as Christopher suggests, class rank in real-world military academies is calculated from the average grades in academic, physical, and military evaluations, each of which has its own grade. Even if Spock (or any other Vulcan who attended SFA up to 2280-something) had the top grade in academics in his graduating year, that may not have been enough to make up for the higher marks a more well-rounded cadet got in their physical and/or military courses. I don't believe we ever heard of Spock engaging in a sport, for instance, aside from chess, so his physical performance may have merely been "average" as far as Vulcans go, even though he's stronger than the average human.
 
At primary school I was told to do the recap on the book that was being read aloud. Problem was I was bored and was reading ahead, so delivered big spoilers...

Once in grade school, we were given an assignment to practice writing with paragraphs, and I wrote a dialogue scene because I was already familiar with how paragraphs were used in dialogue writing. The teacher told me, no, paragraphs with dialogue are the next lesson, so you have to go back and do one without dialogue. Heaven forbid I get ahead of the lockstep of the rest of the class.


After some light Googling I've found that, as Christopher suggests, class rank in real-world military academies is calculated from the average grades in academic, physical, and military evaluations, each of which has its own grade. Even if Spock (or any other Vulcan who attended SFA up to 2280-something) had the top grade in academics in his graduating year, that may not have been enough to make up for the higher marks a more well-rounded cadet got in their physical and/or military courses. I don't believe we ever heard of Spock engaging in a sport, for instance, aside from chess, so his physical performance may have merely been "average" as far as Vulcans go, even though he's stronger than the average human.

Aha. Good find. So I was on the right track, but missing a few things.
 
The kahs-wan was to prove himself to himself.
Uh, no, running off on his own, before the actual kahs-wan, was to prove himself to himself.

Wasn't there something, maybe a flashback in Spock's World, about Spock, in his actual kahs-wan, breaking the rule about silence and independence, to save a life?
 
Uh, no, running off on his own, before the actual kahs-wan, was to prove himself to himself.

That's not a "no," that's exactly the thing we're talking about. As Bryan said, "I could see the kid who ran off to do his kahs-wan being very concerned about his status as a student." And we all know it wasn't the real one, so it doesn't need to be clarified. We never saw the real one canonically, so it's not a factor in this discussion.
 
And thinking about it some more, I think that it’s the proving himself to himself that leads him to (maybe) being so successful at SFA. We know he has exacting standards for himself, physically and intellectually. He can push himself to the limits in both arenas, in ways that humans can’t. He’s just not going to allow himself to not succeed in something he puts his mind to. One of my favorite parts of Mark Waid’s Legion reboot with Barry Kitson was the fact that Brainiac 5 was dumb by Coluan standards. He was light years ahead of anyone else who wasn’t Coluan, but by their standards, he was a dunce. I think that would be an interesting characteristic for Spock, but I’ve already said that he doesn’t need to be the first Vulcan at the head of his class, I just don’t think Valeris should be the first. I think she should be at the top of her class, but there just should be someone who did it before her.
 
He’s just not going to allow himself to not succeed in something he puts his mind to.

Yes, that's the point. He's going to put his mind to succeeding in academics and science, which, as David demonstrated, is just one of three standards by which he'd probably be judged, along with physical and military performance. which Spock would be less concerned with. Spock is a scientist, not a soldier. Of course he's going to excel in academics, but that is not the same as being top of his Academy class.


I just don’t think Valeris should be the first. I think she should be at the top of her class, but there just should be someone who did it before her.

I repeat: Maybe by Valeris's time, there have been more nonhuman students and the Academy standards have been reformed to be less human-centric, fairer in assessing the performance of nonhumans. Institutions can have biases. If Starfleet Academy's standards weren't calibrated for nonhumans, it would be harder for nonhumans to meet them.
 
But where does Savik then fall into that grading scale? You would think the protégé of Spock, with him as an instructor and mentor, would easily be top of her class. Add to that her performance during the Genesis Incident and I'm not sure how you could not have her be top.
 
The timing's wrong. Leila was 6 years before "This Side of Paradise," so 2261, well after the Academy and seven years into Spock's Enterprise tenure under Pike's command (about 3 years after we last saw Pike and Spock in Discovery, so maybe Leila will show up on Strange New Worlds eventually).

If so I hope they don't undo anything from Inception. I liked that book.
 
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