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Star Trek Picard is not Star Trek

That material most needs are met in the Federation is not in dispute, even by someone as cyincal as Captain Lorca,

Lorca: " It was a family business, a century ago. That was before the future came, and hunger, need and want disappeared. Of course, they're making a comeback now, thanks to you. Michael Burnham."

but that in itself seems from examples, confined to UFP core worlds. Otherwise someone like Kodos could not have used a food emergency to cause mass murder. (non-canon and off topic but interesting: See the book "Drastic Measures" for Lorca, Georgiou, Kirk AND Kodos on the same world).

so the UFP is, occasionally, a post-scarcity society, but it is not utopian, nor does it try to be.
 
Greg Cox said:
Gotta disagree. TOS was optimistic in that it took place in a future that was better than 1966, in a future that one might actually want to live in (as opposed to some dystopian cautionary fable), but it wasn't utopian, nor had humans "evolved" beyond our mortal flaws and weaknesses. We were still a half-savage child race--as god-like aliens never ceased to remind us.

Indeed, as I've pointed out many times before, TOS was actually pretty suspicious of utopias. Anytime they found a planet where people seemed to be a little too peaceful and happy, you could count on there being a fly in the ointment: alien spores, an insane computer-god, a brain-washing ray, etc.

"Maybe we're not meant to live in Paradise," sayeth James T. Kirk, more than once.
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Fully agreed!

People seem to forget that one of the very themes of TOS was that mankind was still struggling and learning. That we had learned to put aside some macro problems (warring amongst ourselves was chief among these items) despite the fact that we still had the individual instincts to lie, cheat, steal and yes, kill.

That all in itself was the "positive vision of the future." We hadn't destroyed ourselves and we had turned our energies toward exploring space together as opposed to warning on Earth over resources or ideologies. It had absolutely nothing to do with any kind of utopian society. And to this day, that's still a pretty positive outlook on things.

And, as you said, Kirk was constantly either defending humanity's basic instincts against the judgement of far more advanced beings or he was dismantling a seeming paradise because it wasn't what it seemed.
 
yotsuya said:
There are continuity errors and then there is just plain ignoring canon. One is a type of mistake, the other is ignorance. Discovery does not dig into TOS to expand its story telling. We don't explore things that we know transpired before the series (And there are a lot of references). The first season just kind of ignored all canon, especially concerning the Klingons.
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And what exactly do we know about the Klingons in the 2250s? What canon was ignored?
Lack of bigotry
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There is an entire subplot in Balance of Terror about a human (Stiles) expressing bigotry towards the Romulans and then the Vulcans. or one Vulcan (Spock)
yotsuya said:
Discovery had a bunch of neat stuff, but they threw out the canon Klingons, they threw out the TOS descriptions of Starfleet (an elite core of 12 ships with other support ships that are not called starships and do not sport the arrowhead insignia),
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Where is it stated Starfleet consists of only 12 core ships and support ships? So you're saying the Constellation, the Defiant and the Exeter weren't starships? And that close to half the fleet was in dry dock for repairs in "Court Martial? That all those arrowhead sporting Starfleeters seen in Court Martial" were off super special Starships? *
yotsuya said:
lack of money
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The references to money in TOS are numerous

*The arrowhead was supposed to be fleetwide. Both ship and base personnel sported it in Court Martial and other episodes Though apparently Commodores and JAG officers did not. A costuming error gave The Constellation and the Exeter unique badges. Something that was continued in Enterprise for the Defiant.
 
Not to mention that Utopia and Distopia are actually two faces of the same medal. In literature 90% of the times you are dealing with an Utopia it's actually just an undercover Dystopia.

1984 by George Orwell for instance is a straight up dystopia, but try to read Brave new World by Huxley...
 
yotsuya said:
"So utopian is an imperfect word, but the one I've seen used to describe it most often."
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And the problem with that word is that folks get carried away with it, to the extent that any sort of human flaws or unpleasantness are seen and condemned as "Not Trek."

A schoolyard fight? Not Trek! People using harsh language? Not Trek! Pushy reporters? Not Trek! People smoking or drinking to excess? Not Trek! Political compromises or corruption? Not Trek!

The whole "utopian" thing is being taken to ridiculous extremes, IMO.
 
Nerys Myk said:
Where is it stated Starfleet consists of only 12 core ships and support ships? So you're saying the Constellation, the Defiant and the Exeter weren't starships? And that close to half the fleet was in dry dock for repairs in "Court Martial? That all those arrowhead sporting Starfleeters seen in Court Martial" were off super special Starships? *
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Well, Kirk does say that there are only twelve ships like Enterprise in the fleet, and there is that "Starship class" plaque.

I kind of wish the badges had been for individual ships. But yeah, TOS can't be reconciled with itself in this regard; the arrowhead either appears in too many places, or too few.

Concerning Klingons, we don't see any of ENT's augment crossbreeds in DSC. OTOH, it's not like T'Kuvma's movement would have had any use for them.
 
AlanC9 said:
Well, Kirk does say that there are only twelve ships like Enterprise in the fleet, and there is that "Starship class" plaque.

I kind of wish the badges had been for individual ships. But yeah, TOS can't be reconciled with itself in this regard; the arrowhead either appears in too many places, or too few.
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We also have to admit that by the time TOS was being produced they were not aware that there would have been so many sequels. They didn't care about lore, they just wanted to make a cool space serie.

In fact, many TOS episodes are US-centric in a very annoying way for those who are not from the states. When listening to Kirk citing the US Constitution articles with a US flag on the background you can clearly see that already, but episodes like the one about the OK Corral shooting (I was not even aware it was a thing honestly, so I can't really understand how an alien 300 years from the future would be able to recreate the whole setting by reading Kirk mind)
 
I too don't think that currency on earth is totally abolished in Star Trek. People still have professions, after all. If it seems like money is of no concern, it is probably because they have a generous universal income or something of the sort. But that is just my line of thinking (and not to be taken as an opinion on current economics, mind you)
 
Bad Thoughts said:
Sisko? First he found a religion, then he became a religion.
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Lol true! I was thinking about traditional religions, but this example is quite valid actually.

But I guess that some earth religions could really be beneficial to silently expand the lore behind characters some times: for instance Sikh are known to wear a turban all the time and the military allows them to wear turban on duty because it's against their religious beliefs to not do so.
One can argue that it's not made to fit inside a space helmet, but neither Klingon hair do
 
Raptor_Fawr said:
And I am a man of science but I find really strange that no human in the whole Trek have no other religion than pure science and logic.
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The funny thing is you can find dozens of Biblical allusions throughout the various Star Trek series. Spock compares tribbles to the "lillies of the field which neither toil or spin". Harry Mudd quotes the Bible when he tells the androids that "human beings do not survive on bread alone". The project Genesis in Star Trek II is taken from the first book of the Bible. DS9 episode titles such as "Nor The Battle to the Strong" and "Let he is who without Sin" are taken from popular KJV Bible verses.
 
Lt.Smokey said:
I too don't think that currency on earth is totally abolished in Star Trek. People still have professions, after all. If it seems like money is of no concern, it is probably because they have a generous universal income or something of the sort. But that is just my line of thinking (and not to be taken as an opinion on current economics, mind you)
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I joined a deep discussion on facebook about this topic. The general consensus was that in between the Federation territory (read that as human colonies tho) currency was not needed and people are willing to give services for free as long as they also get services for free. Every human is basically a freelance worker that is doing is job because it gives him joy to work in that field he is employed into, even if dangerous.

But then again, in a Mudd episode he is trying to sell some women to dilitym miners because they are rich enough to pay him so...
 
Armus said:
The funny thing is you can find dozens of Biblical allusions throughout the various Star Trek series. Spock compares tribbles to the "lillies of the field which neither toil or spin". Even Harry Mudd quotes the Bible when he tells the androids that "human beings do not survive on bread alone".
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THIS proves that TOS didn't care too much about the in-universe lore.

Because how can Spock have high enough opinion of the bible to quote it? He is a vulcan, Surak logic is their only religion. I was raised as a catholic and I read the bible, I even attended christian classes at school, but since I dropped my religion I can't think of any famous verse from those books beside the ones that I needed to understand Neon Genesis Evangelion lore
 
thribs said:
Not yet. Give it time. :)
I used to love rewatching Trek episodes but with Picard I have no compulsion to. Just doesn’t feel as fun to watch. Even some Discovery episodes had that. Especially the Lorca episodes.
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PIC is likely setting up the "lows" (despair, gloom, and a feeling that hope is lost) in order to finish with a more upbeat bang where Picard finds less to be cynical about when it comes to the Federation/Star Fleet, and where characters begin to overcome their demons.
 
Raptor_Fawr said:
THIS proves that TOS didn't care too much about the in-universe lore.

Because how can Spock have high enough opinion of the bible to quote it? He is a vulcan, Surak logic is their only religion. I was raised as a catholic and I read the bible, I even attended christian classes at school, but since I dropped my religion I can't think of any famous verse from those books beside the ones that I needed to understand Neon Genesis Evangelion lore
Click to expand...

Spock is a renaissance man with a great love of earth's cultural heritage. The Bible, Shakespeare, Sherlock Holmes, he reads them all.
 
Raptor_Fawr said:
And I am a man of science but I find really strange that no human in the whole Trek have no other religion than pure science and logic.
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New Eden developed a syncretic religion : https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/White_Church

Interestingly, Vulcans and Bajorans do seem more religious than most other species, though Klingons may be the only anti-theistic culture shown. Kirk made a monotheistic jab at Apollo, but he was probably just trying to get in his head. Phlox briefly studied at a Tibetan Buddhist monastery in the 22nd century and witnessed a Mass at St. Peter's Square.

Ultimately the existence of Brian Brophy satisfied most seekers' questions regarding a multitude of metaphysical quandaries, and organized human religion became less prominent.
 
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